If an artist is revealed to be a racist, anti-vaxxer, or some other unacceptable characteristic? Can you then enjoy their music, stand-up, acting, etc?
If you learn that the foundations of much of modern medicine are built upon research conducted by the Nazis and Japanese during WW2 during the committing of untold of atrocities, could you still trust or use modern medicine?
@thedisasterautist
It is difficult to realize this, and certainly not something to be condoned. But, and you knew there was one, science is science. So that's what I am going with. Yes.
@CinnamonGirlE: Same goes for comedy and art, AFAIAC.
If people really knew well the people whose art they admire, many would almost certainly find themselves in a quandary.
That said, whether one who has no problem with the art but with the artist *purchases* their art is another question entirely.
@thedisasterautist
Right. Doubtful I am going to purchase any more Eric Clapton, but I still will listen to what I have.
@CinnamonGirlE @thedisasterautist i will not buy or read Marion Zimmer Bradley. i will no longer buy anything by JK Rowling or any of her pseudos, or any licensed merchandise.
I'm currently reading a Dean Koontz book, and it will be my last, @redenigma @CinnamonGirlE @thedisasterautist
He can't keep his crazy world views out of his fiction. Plenty of other authors for me to explore. 👍
@cmskiera @CinnamonGirlE @thedisasterautist in that case, avoid Orson Scott Card too...
@thedisasterautist @CinnamonGirlE
See also US testing on African Americans.
Difficult to acknowledge, best to own up to and admit.
NTM the genetic fallacy in informal logic.
much of our medicine was also built on the backs of tortured monkeys and bunnies and dogs and other animals. Untold numbers of mice. Tortured.
Ik :( and reading through this thread, I knew some of it on the human testing, but I did not know all of that, if that’s absolutely horrific.
Human beings are among the worst animals. @CinnamonGirlE @thedisasterautist
@CinnamonGirlE I'm certain we have already. Sometimes via the performer's secreted duality never revealed. Others later exposed like Charlie Chaplin. Doing it willfully? If there is value to me that exceeds where the profits go and depending on circumstances I might. There are comics I like who have worn these labels throughout time.
@MidnightRider
Eric Clapton comes to mind. Always loved his music from way back, but he has turned out to be not necessarily a great human. I still listen to his music, but with a twinge now.
@CinnamonGirlE My dad loved his unplugged album, didn't get it back till he passed. So there's something great he did, I don't need to conflate or judge his decisions.
@MidnightRider
Exactly. It can't detract from the beauty he already brought us.
@CinnamonGirlE I don't want to see a tock tick of my worst day, thank God the Polaroid swinger took very poor quality shots, void of proper fixing.
@CinnamonGirlE Same here.
@CinnamonGirlE
Sometimes.
Example. Roger Waters. Such a hateful man, but the rest of Pink Floyd don't deserve to be "cancelled" because of him, especially since he left in the early 80s.
The music they made with him still stands up, so I am ok with listening to the band as a whole.
@stueytheround
Kind of how I feel.
If their art is based in words I think their attitude would ruin it. If visual or other media, it wouldn't be so clear.
@CJLavoie
Exactly. These distinctions matter
It depends upon the context, the time of the comments/actions in question versus release date of artistic material, and the artists' intent/history of behavior.
An easy ex. is Skrewdriver, the UK white power band. Ruled out right away, lol. Nugent would be next for any number of reasons.
Clapton somehow got a pass on his remarks (which started Rock Against Racism) until his 'rona bs, which Van joined in on. Or Roger Waters with his Putin views.
It's an uneasy continuum.
@InUnfunky
Then we veer off into how many men you start to find out were secretly sexual abusers. The past few years were pretty disturbing. And heartbreaking too. I always want to believe the best in people, but practical me knows that just isn't possible.
It's USUALLY a matter of degree and not kind...usually. Again, see Nugent, Skrewdriver, etc. Those are easy and clear cut extremes.
Artists, scientists, pols are human and say/do stupid shit on varying levels of stupidity as we know. "Redeeming social value" cliche has play here, if any is merited.
More exs -- many early enviros were racist and xenophobic. Our intel post-WW2 depended on Nazi scientists. Tradeoffs are 🤬
Less mortal? See JK Rowling, Chappelle, etc.
@InUnfunky
Chappelle is a good example.
Pretty controversial for plenty.
Redeeming social value indeed. This seems to be the problem. What is considered to hold social vaue now. Not static.
@CinnamonGirlE it’s not that I don’t still think Clapton’s music is awesome but I don’t listen or sing along to it anymore. Morrison, Meatloaf the same. Makes me sad but my feeling in them have changed drastically.
I loved Fraser until I found out about Grammer’s politics. Can’t watch it now. Eastwood made many movies in my home area and was a fav until that empty chair moment. They hold no interest for me anymore. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
@NorCalCherylLyn
I seem to be able to do it easier with the music. Maybe because it is ingrained in my brain and part of my life associated with pleasurable things.
Seems more difficult with actors, like Kelsey Grammer for instance is a good one, Jon Voight, and the worst, James Woods.
@CinnamonGirlE music is easier, it’s such a part of our memories. Voight and Wood’s are dead to me. 😄
@NorCalCherylLyn
That pretty much seems to be a deciding factor for me. Music is baked in at this point. The other? Nope.
@CinnamonGirlE @NorCalCherylLyn
Some artists were assholes - Lou Reed, but I can forgive that. But supporting racist bully Trump, I cannot forgive it.
@Bix @NorCalCherylLyn
Agreed. Asshole is one thing. Lots of people are assholes with the chops to back it up. I moved past the line of supporting anyone who could support Trump some time back.
@CinnamonGirlE @NorCalCherylLyn
Trump is so damaged, in an evil way. If someone cannot see it, then FUCK THEM.
@Bix @NorCalCherylLyn
I was honestly so astounded by people who could support him in the beginning it took me a while to gather my thoughts about them. Where I live, I am surrounded sadly. But yes.
@CinnamonGirlE @NorCalCherylLyn
I have two friends that have adult trans children.
I am at "Damnation for every Republican." @InUnfunky
@Bix @NorCalCherylLyn @InUnfunky
Completely understood. I have a gay Granddtr whose safety I worry about in this "good old boys network".
Among so many other things.
Not a fan.
@CinnamonGirlE @Bix @NorCalCherylLyn Where I worked we would say everyone is an asshole; it is a matter of degree and we invented categories. Big. Global, Solar, Galactic and so forth. The guys called me an Fing Asshole. I think they liked me!
@BFBucky1 @Bix @NorCalCherylLyn
I love that. Working with surgeons we had categories for them as well. They excel in asshole usually.
I have someone I care about I call an effing asshole, so yes! I bet they did. ❣️🤣
@Bix @CinnamonGirlE @NorCalCherylLyn
Did you get Trumped by Snoop, Bixie? 😆
@Bix @CinnamonGirlE @NorCalCherylLyn
I can actually pinpoint when I STOPPED listening to rap.
In '93? when Snoop's first cd came out and all of a sudden the world of PE, KRS One, Run DMC, Ice T, Tribe Called Quest, etc was dunzo.
Turns out I was a prophet and just didn't know it, yet. 🙄 🙄 😉
I'm pretty much the same, @NorCalCherylLyn. It's not so much a conscious decision, as I can still appreciate the quality of their art, I just don't enjoy it as I once did. My brain can't disassociate their art from their hateful words and actions, @CinnamonGirlE
@cmskiera @NorCalCherylLyn
It does cast a shadow for sure. 🥲
@cmskiera @CinnamonGirlE it for sure has tainted the memories and enjoyment I used to have listening.
@NorCalCherylLyn @CinnamonGirlE I am so totally with you.
@NorCalCherylLyn @CinnamonGirlE We are on the same page.
@NorCalCherylLyn @CinnamonGirlE
Agree.
I’ve learned regardless of their talent, if their character is flawed, I cannot tolerate them. I’m unapologetic.
Although there are artists who are beyond the pale, as others have noted there is a big gray area here.
Reading some biographies of the "great" painters (see: Picasso)--sometimes makes me never want to look at another picture.
@ChelseaGirl429
Perhaps sometimes digging too much is not a great idea. I have started to figure out not knowing everything is not always a bad idea.
Yes, sometimes it just doesn't matter, especially if the artist in question is no longer living.
As they say, "don't borrow trouble." 😎
@CinnamonGirlE This one is very difficult. Makes me sad as well. When someone's views are based on misinformation, disinformation, and flat out lies it's difficult to still enjoy their work.
@dauphin87
We humans are such flawed and complex creatures in some ways. In others so extremely basic. Once revealed either way, sometimes it is impossible to go back.
@CinnamonGirlE I decide on a case by case.
@allin
Basically how I do everything and everyone.
@CinnamonGirlE, if it seems to be coming from a place of hate, I'm done with their art. But if they're an anti-vaxxer I feel like it's coming from an uninformed place or possibly mental illness and I can still enjoy their work.
@CinnamonGirlE, I think some of the hateful stuff comes from mental illness as well (Kanye West), but I don't want that in my life.
@Finkle
Me either. This falls under a whole other category of boundary I have built.
@CinnamonGirlE I can enjoy the art and not support the artist