Seems pretty clear. I admit I'm struggling with this one but it's getting clearer the more I read.
Geneva Convention:
@Fellixe Terrorist orgs are generally not entitled to special protections, nor are they civilians.
@stueytheround Yes, though I don't think the fact that the current conflict is against terrorists gives Israel the freedom to employ tactics that are against the Geneva Conventions.
I'm not screaming "genocide" here. I'm very sympathetic to the fact that Israel is fighting not only direct terrorism but a proxy war against larger outside terrorist organizations and terrorist supporting states. But they seem to have fucked up employing this tactic. This rule is designed for exactly this scenario
@stueytheround @Fellixe
Absolutely Felixe, terrorists are exempt from any Geneva Convention.
@Anemone @stueytheround @Fellixe
However, since there was no way to know who might be standing in proximity to the wearer, it is problematic. What if one of them were wearing his pager on a standing-room-only bus next to a stranger's face?
@EileenKCarpenter @stueytheround @Fellixe
Is that what happened? I understand it was all Hezbollah. Terrorists.
In any case, I think it was brilliant. I'm not at all interesting in second guessing another country's military strategy.
@Anemone @stueytheround @Fellixe
The pagers just exploded wherever they were -- mostly in the pockets of Hezbollah members, but if some of the explosions were severe enough to kill the wearers, there's no way to prevent shrapnel blowing away from their bodies toward whoever is nearby.
@EileenKCarpenter @stueytheround @Fellixe
The injuries were to the face, eyes, and hips of those terrorists who received a page or call on the walkie talkie.
Terrorists should really be more responsible when walking around with tools of war in their pockets - it's their responsibility not to hurt others near them when using those tools of war.
@Anemone @stueytheround @Fellixe
Israel is struggling with the public relations battle, and now they've just alienated anyone who has ever carried a pager. It's not a weapon of war. It's a beeper. It sits between you and many other people as you go about your day.
Hezbollah members are likely to congregate with each other, but many happened to be in public places like markets. What if you were at the supermarket in your country in line behind a foreign spy who someone wanted to assassinate?
@EileenKCarpenter There is no way to guarantee zero collateral damage when using explosives. It's impossible. Whether it's a grenade or a state of the art missile or drone you can *not* guarantee zero civilian casualties. Yet for some reason people want to hold Israel to an impossible standard which they don't hold any other country to, including Russia whi've killed thousands of civilians in Ukraine.
Why do you think that is?
@Anemone @stueytheround @EileenKCarpenter There is a lot of that going around, the impossible standards. Los of accusations of targeting children when the targets were military and happened to be minors who were also militants.
In this particular case, though, the standard doesn't seem unreasonable. It is published and agreed to. They might have a legal defense through the terrorism angle. But the proxy war vs. Lebanon or Iran etc could actually cut against that legal strategy.
@Fellixe It's not the terrorism angle.
You're completely misreading the law.
It's a law intended to prevent the use of boobytraps to *deliberately* target civilians or other protected groups, much like the IRA did with car bombs back in the 80s. The method used here did not do that. The targets were military. Civilian injury, while regrettable was not deliberate.
@stueytheround @Anemone @EileenKCarpenter If intending to target civilians was the purpose the rule could have been written "intended to target civilians". I think this rule is inclusive of bombs that might incidentally attract civilian attention.
@Anemone @EileenKCarpenter @stueytheround @Fellixe agree except in the case of the children who have no control over what the adults in their lives do. As far as I know there were two children who died. Itโs much better than hundreds but itโs still awful any time innocents die
@Museek Of course it is and nobody *wants* innocents to die no matter their age. It's one of the most awful aspects of war and always has been. ๐
@EileenKCarpenter "Might attract civilians" in other words, this law is designed to prevent the use of boobytraps to *deliberately* target civilians.
Like, for instance, suicide bombings in marketplaces.
I'm not saying it's a good thing, but non-targeted civilian casualties are not in breach of the above law.
Thatโs an unfortunate coincidence, but itโs not covered in that snippet. It says booby traps on protected people, or that are likely to attract civilians.
A pager on someoneโs hip is not likely to attract civilians, @EileenKCarpenter @Anemone @stueytheround @Fellixe
@stueytheround I think that second point is arguable. A pager is attractive to civilians in a number of ways. Anecdotally the fact that the pager went off and in at least one case a family member responded to it is pretty good evidence of that.
The whole conversation is stupid.
Maybe you are a lot younger than I @Fellixe but I was on a ship heading toward Cypress in 1984 when war broke out. I was in Cairo on a day 14 people killed the same year.
I wasn't even 16 years old. Ever since then I think very carefully about how different people are throughout the world. We do not all share the same view.
omg.
Israel is not wrong.
Look I'm not a military analyst, but I think their military was genius - this is the type of attack that targeted exactly who they intended, and honestly it was up to those terrorists to protect their friends and family and neighbours from their terrorist tools of war.
Israel is not responsible for their carelessness.
@Fellixe Attractive to civilians means *designed* to cause civilian casualties. This is not. It's a personal device. I think you're desperate to make an argument for a breach of the Geneva convention which isn't there.
@stueytheround I dint think that's correct. Put a football/booby trap on a battlefield hoping that a soldier will be sentimental and pick it up and instead a local child finds it first - there's one definition of "attractive yo civilians"
@Fellixe I give up. You *want* Israel to be the bad guys meanwhile schools and hospitals are being bombed in Ukraine and I've heard nothing from you.
@Fellixe How is a pager in someone's pocket like a football in the street? Apart from anything else it's not visible.
@Fellixe You're going with false equivalences.
@stueytheround @Render Sorry if I have triggered you. Not my intention to bring up bad memories. I'll leave this conversation because apparently you aren't prepared to discuss this without going after my intentions. Sorry
@stueytheround i worked in Oxford Street during the height of the IRA bombing campaign in the late 80s
@killingfloorman I lived on an Army base in Oxfordshire from '75 - '83 and then a Navy base in Plymouth until my parents bought their own house in '89 and we had to to torch and mirror under the car every time we got into it until the Good Friday agreement.
I remember the day my Dad was issued with the gun he would carry for the rest of his police career. It was the day of the bombing of the Royal Marine Band training centre in Deal, Kent.
@killingfloorman @Fellixe @Render
Anyway, that has given me some insight into daily living under the threat of a terrorist attack. I was more worried about a car bomb than a Russian nuclear attack. I can, in a small way, imagine what it's like to be Jewish in a world where large numbers of people don't think you have the right to exist.
@stueytheround @Render Thanks.
If IRA bombs were found not to be booby traps based on remote triggers that helps me in what in looking for. I'll try to look that up
@Fellixe Yeah it's a fine line for sure.
Remote trigger, timer trigger, movement trigger. Same end result. Works as designed.
*Generally* when IRA car bombs were described in the news as "boobytrapped" they were movement based or triggered by the car battery on turning the key in the ignition.
@Render
@Fellixe
The objects were not attached to persons protected under humanitarian law, nor were they likely to attract civilians.