Seems pretty clear. I admit I'm struggling with this one but it's getting clearer the more I read.
Geneva Convention:
@Fellixe Terrorist orgs are generally not entitled to special protections, nor are they civilians.
@stueytheround Yes, though I don't think the fact that the current conflict is against terrorists gives Israel the freedom to employ tactics that are against the Geneva Conventions.
I'm not screaming "genocide" here. I'm very sympathetic to the fact that Israel is fighting not only direct terrorism but a proxy war against larger outside terrorist organizations and terrorist supporting states. But they seem to have fucked up employing this tactic. This rule is designed for exactly this scenario
@Fellixe I don't think that what Israel just did breaks the above convention as written. That's what I mean.
@Fellixe
The objects were not attached to persons protected under humanitarian law, nor were they likely to attract civilians.
@stueytheround I think that second point is arguable. A pager is attractive to civilians in a number of ways. Anecdotally the fact that the pager went off and in at least one case a family member responded to it is pretty good evidence of that.
The whole conversation is stupid.
Maybe you are a lot younger than I @Fellixe but I was on a ship heading toward Cypress in 1984 when war broke out. I was in Cairo on a day 14 people killed the same year.
I wasn't even 16 years old. Ever since then I think very carefully about how different people are throughout the world. We do not all share the same view.
omg.
Israel is not wrong.
Look I'm not a military analyst, but I think their military was genius - this is the type of attack that targeted exactly who they intended, and honestly it was up to those terrorists to protect their friends and family and neighbours from their terrorist tools of war.
Israel is not responsible for their carelessness.
@stueytheround I dint think that's correct. Put a football/booby trap on a battlefield hoping that a soldier will be sentimental and pick it up and instead a local child finds it first - there's one definition of "attractive yo civilians"
@Fellixe I give up. You *want* Israel to be the bad guys meanwhile schools and hospitals are being bombed in Ukraine and I've heard nothing from you.
@Fellixe How is a pager in someone's pocket like a football in the street? Apart from anything else it's not visible.
@Fellixe You're going with false equivalences.
@stueytheround @Render Sorry if I have triggered you. Not my intention to bring up bad memories. I'll leave this conversation because apparently you aren't prepared to discuss this without going after my intentions. Sorry
@stueytheround i worked in Oxford Street during the height of the IRA bombing campaign in the late 80s
@killingfloorman I lived on an Army base in Oxfordshire from '75 - '83 and then a Navy base in Plymouth until my parents bought their own house in '89 and we had to to torch and mirror under the car every time we got into it until the Good Friday agreement.
I remember the day my Dad was issued with the gun he would carry for the rest of his police career. It was the day of the bombing of the Royal Marine Band training centre in Deal, Kent.
@killingfloorman @Fellixe @Render
Anyway, that has given me some insight into daily living under the threat of a terrorist attack. I was more worried about a car bomb than a Russian nuclear attack. I can, in a small way, imagine what it's like to be Jewish in a world where large numbers of people don't think you have the right to exist.
@stueytheround @Render Thanks.
If IRA bombs were found not to be booby traps based on remote triggers that helps me in what in looking for. I'll try to look that up
@Fellixe Yeah it's a fine line for sure.
Remote trigger, timer trigger, movement trigger. Same end result. Works as designed.
*Generally* when IRA car bombs were described in the news as "boobytrapped" they were movement based or triggered by the car battery on turning the key in the ignition.
@Render
@Fellixe Attractive to civilians means *designed* to cause civilian casualties. This is not. It's a personal device. I think you're desperate to make an argument for a breach of the Geneva convention which isn't there.