@MLClark interesting... Not sure what I can do to help but I've got a bit of spare time atm if it's needed

@Zailrand Wonderful! Thank you. 🤗

I think we need the following:

1) To make the CoSo guide plain text.

2) To not only update whatever needs updating in it after all this time, but also to make it blind-user friendly.

3) To give the guide a dedicated page on #CoSo, so native translation software can do the rest for new users.

4) To share an editable version of aids like mine among translators, and create a wiki-styled database of multiple versions.

How does that sound to everyone? Doable?

@MLClark

Ok, I'll take a better look at the guide when I fire up laptop shortly...

First of all I've got to wash spilt coffee out of a rug..

@Zailrand 😅 Going for a run now myself. We shall regroooooup! 🤗 Thank you, & good luck with the stain!

@MLClark cool :) I have a terrible memory at times so prod me if needed! Enjoy your run :)

@MLClark @Zailrand I agree that you might sometimes need to generate a version for screen readers, but that would eliminate audio for those who prefer it over text, and it would eliminate video for those who have difficulty reading. People with limited or no vision shouldn't be denied an interactive TOC or navigational headings. We should implement ARIA and WCAG across the site and the apps.
https://torquemag.io/2019/08/aria-markup-accessibility/

@peterquirk @Zailrand I agree with the second half but I'm confused by the first. Why would making a blind-user friendly CoSo user guide eliminate audio and video?

@MLClark @Zailrand you talked about plain text and PDF formats.

@peterquirk @Zailrand Yes, a plain text version for ease of translation on native language software. And while we're in there, super easy to add instructional materials to the guide for those who can't rely on visual aids. No elimination required.

@MLClark @Zailrand I've worked with translation teams that insisted on SGML and DITA tags.

@peterquirk @Zailrand At present we have a CoSo user guide that, in PDF with visual objects, isn't easily scalable to the needs of multilanguage and blind users. Shifting it to a dedicated page in a format that translation software can readily translate, and using the opportunity to improve the language for blind and low-vision users, was the essential point. It would be a step up!

That said, I wholeheartedly agree that making the site more navigable for blind users is a great next step, too!

@peterquirk @Zailrand I think we're all using different language around the same point.

I said plain text in contrast to PDF, to address the multilanguage users.

But when talking about making the doc more blind-user friendly, yes, obviously mark-up language improves the experience. I was primarily referring to the need to revise the content, the instructional language itself, to be less visually dependent. But the whole of the doc needs to be text-based *and* marked up.

Okay, back to my run!

@MLClark @peterquirk Also it's think about small achievable steps, not trying to do everything at once as we simply don't have the resources... Making everything work for everyone is the ideal outcome, but incrementally

@Zailrand @peterquirk That said, tackling the site's frontend to be more accessible could easily be a project for another group to strategize around this month, while we're adjusting the user guide and visual aid resources!

@MLClark @Zailrand @peterquirk plaintext can also be in version control to facilitate participation and validation.
$.02

@MLClark @Zailrand I apologize for rushing my answer. Like you I was rushing to get out the door for a run.
I find the built-in translator in Edge works fine for virtually any language to English. I assume the reverse applies. A user guide published in HTML rather than PDF should be immediately translatable. The Chrome built-in translator seems to work well too.

@MLClark @Zailrand The lack of any ARIA markup in the web site renders screen reader extensions for browsers fairly useless. Additionally, the support for keyboard-based navigation is awful.

@peterquirk @Zailrand

So these are important areas of concern for CoSo's growth re: accessibility.

Like we'd been saying, converting the user guide from PDF and embedding it on a webpage will fix part of the issue for folks from other language backgrounds trying to learn the site. (Translations of any visual aids still necessary, though.)

But if the site requires major markup and navigation-support changes to be screen reader friendly? That's a whole other issue to be dealt with separately.

@MLClark @Zailrand When you were talking about plain text I assumed you meant something like RFCs in plain text which delete structural metadata that accessibility tools like screen readers need to navigate. I'm fine with HTML.

@peterquirk @MLClark @Zailrand
Or XML rather which can be easily transformed to HTML, JSON, plaintext, PDF, etc. with different stylesheets. And markdown goes easily into XML. I personally don't like using markdown but this is a practical use case.

@peterquirk @Zailrand I was thinking about guide modifications from the content side, not the mark-up, so I completely see how the lack of clarity emerged. However, it did let us reach deeper issues, so that's great!

@MLClark @Zailrand "textual content rather than pictorial or screenshots" is what you're aiming for. Including structural information (chapters, heading levels, hyperlinks, etc.) with some support for skipping to next/previous would be an ideal first goal.

@peterquirk @MLClark @Zailrand

Awful? I wouldn't say that.
Press Esc (to defocus the status box) and ?

Keyboard shortcuts! This trick works across Google sites and many other websites.

@b4cks4w @peterquirk @Zailrand

Oh this is good. Multiple voices and experience sets makes things a heck of a lot easier.

I think as a collective it might be useful to gather thoughts on what to keep in mind as CoSo scales in user base. Not a list of demands! Just a working doc that lets us see what *we* can do to improve the experience, and what functionality gaps we need to be mindful of as the platform grows.

Shared Google Doc, maybe? Or other preferred multiuser workspace?

@b4cks4w @MLClark @Zailrand Keyboard navigation in Edge and Chrome works to some degree in column 1. Each widget gets highlighted as you navigate forward. Column 2 onwards provides no highlighting of the current element. There are no keyboard shortcuts for the pre-defined columns.

@MLClark @Zailrand The CoSo user guide in PDF won't even import into Microsoft Word. I was hoping to explore some of the narrator and navigation features in Word, but that PDF won't import.

@peterquirk @MLClark

Have you tried an export from a PDF writer rather than a direct import?

@Zailrand @MLClark I don't currently have a licensed PDF writer like Acrobat. I've generally found Word's importer to be fairly robust, though fidelity may not be perfect. Visual fidelity was such a joke anyway in a world of two major paper sizes and an almost infinite variety of screen sizes. Adobe has now added "Liquid mode" to its PDF reader for phones. (Can you tell I despise PDF?)

@stueytheround @MLClark

What? Even my gibberish?

@mickcarty @stueytheround ESPECIALLY your gibberish! 😉

@MLClark @stueytheround

At last…..

…people who understand me… 🥲

@mickcarty I'm not sure there's a supercomuter in the world that could translate you, my friend!

However @MLClark in the app, tap the burger top right and you'll see something like this

@stueytheround @MLClark

Isn’t a supercommuter just someone with a rail season ticket?

They ain’t all that

@mickcarty @stueytheround 😂 😂 @MLClark

@mickcarty 🤣 bloody typos!

@MLClark

@stueytheround @MLClark

🤔 Isn’t that a Greek island?

@mickcarty Just across the way from Argos. 😜

@MLClark

@stueytheround @MLClark

Cor… phew 😅

Thought I’d got it wrong again

@stueytheround Hi again, Stuey! Do you know where the translator is on the desktop? The phone app is easy - it pops up right over your profile when you click on the burger - but I don't see the same easy access on my desktop, and I can't find language options when I click through to preferences on the desktop either. (I'm thinking this is just a visibility issue, rather than it being entirely absent in the desktop version, though.)

@MLClark Sorry. I only use desktop if there's a feature I need to use that's not in the app, like countershare, so I'm afraid I have no idea!

@stueytheround Ah. That's probably also why I never saw translator functionality! Good to know. Just taking notes of what needs to be made clearer, cheers!

@stueytheround Ah, terrific! That's one ítem off the list, then. Usually I see a prompt to translate available on the text object itself, but if it's a secondary feature to be switched on elsewhere, despite my computer being in Spanish automatically, that makes sense.

There *is* an argument to be made for having item-specific translation available; it does wonders to see multiple languages on one's feed, and to translate only if you'd like to pop in, but that's not a *necessity* right now.

@stueytheround On Twitter, I had Hebrew, Hungarian, Arabic, French, Portuguese, Mandarin, Spanish, Greek, Hindi, Japanese... it really helps a place feel *global* to be able to see everyone's content natively. But item-specific embedded translation is a demanding ask. It can definitely wait!

@Anton Great idea! Maybe item-specific embedded translation wouldn't be so hard after all. Lower priority, of course - plain text fully accesible user guide first! But how much more welcoming this place will become as a truly *international* social media alternative once we crack this nut.

(Also, it might *really* help to push back on the tedious banned-countries complaint, if we have a platform that explicitly incorporates all languages.)

🤗 Thanks for brainstorming with me!