Someone I'm close to recently spoke positively about shame. Like, there are good reasons and uses for shame.
I'm going to be clear: the only way you can talk positively about shame is if you're comfortable with control and manipulation.
Any system that depends on shame is fragile. Its people are fragile. Their relationships and affiliations are fragile. Shame is unpredictable except that it is destructive.
*Most* people I share my life with know this, and are working to remove shame's power.
@TrueBloodNet Okay, let's pull away from the extreme hard-edges of morality (eg murder and rape).
Even in this cursory list of moral concerns, you're separating out killing animals for food vs other reasons.
But to an ethical vegan, for example, what's the difference? To them, killing animals is immoral, full stop.
So here's my question: Do we really want all of society to be caught up in a crossfire of intentional shaming? And who is allowed to decide which of their ends justify any means?
@sumpnlikefaith I just didn't want to get into that discussion. And, I still don't.
I'm sorry to tell you but if my options are no shaming for anything vs shaming. I'm for it.
@TrueBloodNet I understand that.
@sumpnlikefaith My take. If someone has murdered another person, for example, the murderer would do well to have some shame over it and reform. But once one has reformed, it is not helpful to remain in shame.
If in fact shame and remorse were the same then this could be true. I view them differently. It's natural to feel remorse, regret, or guilt about a particular action or behavior. Shame IMHO goes a lot deeper and represents negative self criticism and feeling like one is not worthy. Shame has no place in our lives because we are all worthy. 🥰
@nursefrombirth Remorse is a better word for what is needed. But even more than remorse, change is needed. Remorse is shame over what one has done. I think even shame over the point one has reached in life can be turned to constructive purpose. Shame over who one is as a human is too far.
It's more a matter how one thinks about the words used. I don't think "shame' always has the overtone of "you are worthless." @sumpnlikefaith @LlamaMountainStudioArts
@poemblaze I'd say that shame is likely, for most people, in most situations where they've breached their own moral code (especially in such an extreme way), whether extrinsically imposed or not.
But I want to complicate this a bit by introducing a point that Amanda Ripley raises in her book High Conflict: shame (humiliation) is a common *motive* for murder.
Where does this fit into our collective relationship with shame? Does it change anything?
@sumpnlikefaith The point about humiliation being connected to murder is a good one.
@sumpnlikefaith My grandmother was fond of saying "a little guilt is a healthy thing."
I disagree. Remorse is healthy - acknowledging why you're not okay with what you did is a necessary step toward change. But guilt and shame do more harm than good.
@sumpnlikefaith It depends entirely what you mean by 'control'. I absolutely think we should use all the tools in the box to stop people from raping babies, women and children (and men) and killing people and animals (not talking food choices here), setting fires, torturing etc.
There are areas where I think shame is inappropriate such as sexual orientation. But others where it's not.