@ItsjustJules I didn't deactivate. I plan not to, though my usage does tend to wax and wane. I got on Twitter in 2009 and I'm sure there are many months during that time where I didn't log in once. If it went away, I wouldn't miss it.
@PeaceMob @ItsjustJules My concern would be from a security standpoint. As they cut staff in that area, expect a black hat to copy the Twitter database of users.
Also, for those that think deleting works, I have a git repo that wants to talk to you. 😅
@feloneouscat @ItsjustJules I'm not too worried about it from a security standpoint. I understand the risk (I am an infosec pro, actually, so this is my area of expertise). I'm sure most of the controls that protect confidentiality of data are technical, i.e. they don't require people do "do" things (applying encryption, for instance), but they may end up light on the threat hunting/response side of the house, and could be slower to respond to potentially malicious events.
@PeaceMob @ItsjustJules Tesla Autopilot has killed 11 people.
This isn’t even killing people.
You are personally shielded by it being a corporation.
The WORST that could happen to Twitter is it shutters a little earlier.
@feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules 11 people killed while autopilot was on is quite different than autopilot killing 11 people.
Autopilot saves lives all the time, you just can't document the accident prevented as easily, but the overall numbers back that up.
@TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules fair point. It's tough to hold an auto manufacturer liable for a vehicle that fails to save a life.
@PeaceMob @TomHarriss @ItsjustJules But it is quite easy to hold them responsible for introducing beta software as if it was golden.
They need to be held accountable.
@feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules Again, nothing the software is doing (however labeled) is magically "responsible" for a driver not paying attention.
The facts are, the software overall is majorly lowering accidents and deaths, which hopefully you'd agree is a good thing.
It is also building towards a future where the tends of thousands of yearly accidents and deaths will be a thing of the past, and that future wouldn't happen if you kept the development entirely in a lab.
@TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules I am of the opinion that if for some crazy reason we hadn't developed automobiles yet, the drive-required kind, that the culture we live in today would not allow the product to be marketed because it is too dangerous. Can you imagine a product being introduced today that is guaranteed to kill about a million and a half people EVERY year, and people being okay with that?
@TomHarriss @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules The point was exposure to legal jeopardy — Tesla should never had untested software on the road. I never signed an agreement to participate.
Sadly, Tesla will never be held responsible.
@feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules Sorry that point of view is just insupportable.
The is still driven by a licensed driver who is legally and directly responsible. The software is tested extensively.
@TomHarriss @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules So when software fails on jets, it’s the pilot’s fault?
It’s called beta software for a reason.
@feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules What software failing how?
False equivalencies and over simplifications help nothing.
Again, the overall numbers show it is already decreasing accidents and deaths... I would think you would support that.
And it is on track to continue having a major positive safety impact.
@feloneouscat @TomHarriss @ItsjustJules Of course not. I totally get the point. We aren't disagreeing on the principle, on what SHOULD be the case (the "in a perfect world" argument), we are talking about what IS the case, and I read you loud and clear, TX, that we shouldn't just do NOTHING to hold billionaires and their corporations accountable.
@TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules it has always been, and I suppose always will be true that it will be difficult to hold to account a company that produces a very deadly product that depends mainly on the consumer to use the product in a non-deadly way. In that regard, software is no different than any other "design" that becomes a part of a product. Humans write them, and humans make mistakes.
@PeaceMob @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules to be fair, if you swallow an egg whole and choke, is that the chicken's fault for producing a deadly product?
I don't disagree that companies often cut ethical and saftey (and environmental) corners and consumers suffer and I believe we need strong regulatory and oversight from goverment to combat that.
I just don't see that as being the core issue with Tesla autopilot, since the numbers clearly show it is reducing accidents and saving lives.
@TomHarriss @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules People argue the same point with guns: they save lives.
My point was that companies, including Tesla (see latest 300,000 recall) are shipping vehicles with under tested software and calling it golden.
Worse, they spend an inordinate amount of time “proving” that usage of autopilot is always the drivers fault.
Autopilot needs to be removed from Tesla vehicles until we have a commission that evaluates and tests auto drive said software.
@feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules People may argue a similar point with guns, but it isnt the "same" point because the facts and numbers don't back it up. You are statistically in more danger with a gun in your house, you are statistically in less danger using autopilot.
Reality matters.
@feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules As for recall (it is that in name only), all car companies have large recalls for saftey, Tesla in this case just pushes a software update and everyone is safer the next day, much better than traditional approaches that can take months/years to fix the fleet.
@TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Reality does matter.
@feloneouscat @TomHarriss @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules
Tesla recall, push undertested software update to fix windshield wiper calibration, next day the road is full of Christines but without the cool Plymouth Fury vibe.
@Cosmichomicide @feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules There are more examples of this process working well and making people safer than it failing and causing harm in the case of Tesla.
So I side with safer. I side with lives saved and accidents prevented and problems fixed quickly.
I side with actively working towards a future that is better using a present that is also better.
@TomHarriss @feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules So, that was a joke, but my serious thought is, until we have a sufficient network of smart roads and/or the majority of cars can effectively communicate with each other to avoid crashes, autopilot, unlike collision detection, introduces different hazards even as it might mitigate others.
@Cosmichomicide @feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules Sure, but it isn't one for one... clearly is it solving far more than it causes, the numbers are quite clear... and as it improves over time (and other car makers copy it in different ways, which is already a thing) the accidents it prevents and lives it saves will be remarkable, and that is no small consideration, and wouldn't happen in a world where you expect perfection before implementation.
@TomHarriss @Cosmichomicide @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Maybe another way to put this is that many attitudes have shifted enough that one death per one hundred lives saved is still too many.
@PeaceMob @Cosmichomicide @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules You just argued against all medical treatment.
@TomHarriss @Cosmichomicide @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules
Exactly.
Does it not ring true? Do you think I'm off-base in this assessment of mine that people have begun to think it's reasonable to assume that others should be responsible for NEVER exposing us to harm? (or even discomfort)
@PeaceMob @Cosmichomicide @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules makes sense to me.
@PeaceMob @TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules I wouldn't go that far and we (now) have decent controls on medical trials (or at least some consent requirements). But I'm also not signing up to be Neuralink patient one. 😜
@Cosmichomicide @TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules We want a Utopian solution here, but it's probably not realistic. We are just not the risk-taking society we used to be when the world was actually a lot more dangerous.
@PeaceMob @TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules I'm not even arguing for perfection, 'cause I know better where people are involved. But we have the ability to deactivate "helper" tech in less-than-optimal situations, we should use it. We also need to accept the fact that people are lazy (idiots who use cruise control in the rain, I'm looking at you) and, to a degree, the tech has to account for that with more than a "bad idea, don't do it" warning.
@Cosmichomicide @TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Right. Eventually, a happy-medium is reached where most parties involved agree "enough" caution has been put into the design. i.e. trigger safety locks on firearms.
@Cosmichomicide @PeaceMob @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules In the case of Tesla autopilot, it will disable features when it detects issues with cameras, or bad weather, or driver inattenion (both not holding the wheel, and the driver not watching the road... it uses a camera track the drivers attention).
@TomHarriss @PeaceMob @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Fair enough, but I'd add in residential areas, city ground streets and school/hospital/construction zones, etc. where there are more likely to be less predictable hazards like people.
Then again, I'd advocate for cellphones that turned off once a car starts moving, but most of Cosmic Jr's friends would not be able to navigate to the mini-mart without them. 😉
There's a balance, we just aren't there yet.
@TomHarriss @Cosmichomicide @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules and (to use a currently over-used phrase) not letting perfect be the enemy of good (or in this case "better")
@Cosmichomicide @feloneouscat @TomHarriss @ItsjustJules lol! That comment was terrible, in a very clever and hilarious way! Christine... 🤣
@feloneouscat @TomHarriss @ItsjustJules A pretty excellent comparison, I think. Between guns and driverless cars, except that guns literally exist to be deadly and for the owner to use to cause deadly harm. But the statistics clearly show that there IS a relationship between the number of guns owned and the number of gun deaths.
@feloneouscat @TomHarriss @ItsjustJules (and that's why corporate law is such a lucrative field. If you're going to develop a product nowadays, you need to hire two lawyers for every engineer you have lol!)
@TomHarriss @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules I think I'm tracking your assessment on the driverless car just fine, and I agree with you. There is an obvious minimum duty of care that has to go into the development of a product or the product will simply fail, and that isn't in the company's interest. How MUCH care they take... that's a vast gray area that the our oligarchs are happy to operate in.
@PeaceMob @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Yup, in this case I know a great deal about autopilot and it simply isn't a great example of what you are talking about.
@PeaceMob @TomHarriss @ItsjustJules Which is to the point that Musk ALREADY has a product that he has spent millions defending, at the cost of lives (and making me a co-tester without my agreement).
Do you seriously think he cares two nits if the entire user database is stolen?
No.
@feloneouscat @PeaceMob @ItsjustJules again, I dispute your characterization of the situation, here. Sorry.
@feloneouscat @TomHarriss @ItsjustJules No, I don't think he cares much. Agreed.
@feloneouscat @TomHarriss @ItsjustJules it's a modern example of how billionaires have used corporations to shield them from accountability for all sorts of ethically-questionable decisions. As long as other billionaires are making money on the company--you're right, that company probably will never be held accountable.
We live in a corporatocracy, not a democracy. Fact.
@PeaceMob @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Or perhaps we live in a democracy heavily influenced (for the worse) by large powerful money interests.
I would like to know the "ethically questionable" status of preventing accidents and saving lives.
@feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Directors and officers can breach their fiduciary duty to the company and shareholders—and even be held personally liable—for cybersecurity breaches. Is it LIKELY, hell no. Rich people literally get away with murder. We know this. I don't mean to detract from your point.
As long as they data they have that belongs to you isn't of any value to you (or risk), then you don't need to care.
@PeaceMob @ItsjustJules The key word is “can”.
My point is that YOUR data may not be important, but there may be millions whose data is — and the fact that Twitter violated the 30 day delete after a permanent ban shows they don’t take security seriously.
Sadly, this is par for the course in most industries.
@feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Yes, I believe that is true. We are returning once again to the notions of "buyer beware" and individual responsibility, which is a whole HUGE topic unto itself, which is fascinating. I'm not making excuses for Twitter, or trying to say it is a benevolent entity. It most certainly is not. I think corporations are evil by nature. I'm just pointing out that you're safer knowing the world as it is, and adjusting, than assuming someone else is going to protect us.
@PeaceMob @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules are we we talking about the same guy who just lit 44m on fire?😜
@t_lang @feloneouscat @ItsjustJules lol, yep, we are. Kind of an "all bets off" situation, ain't it? 🤣
@PeaceMob @ItsjustJules Theft of certs is trivial in a system that is falling apart as Muck attempts to invent Twitter 2.0. We know Twitter keeps data LONG PAST 30 days (he restored Trump’s account with followers and tweets).
Slow? They don’t have enough people to keep the system alive AND create all the new systems Musk wants.
I jumped ship the day the Twitter deal was finalized for that very reason, before people were axed.
We both know what a house of cards that place is.
@feloneouscat @ItsjustJules I don't disagree with any of that. You make good points. My counterpoint is that I've never put anything into Twitter that I'm worried about being stolen. I've understood for a long time that if I put something on the internet, it may live forever, whether I want it to or not. With that knowledge in mind, I take risks, as everyone does every day using internet services, that I am comfortable with.
That's really the best we can do. Great points!
@feloneouscat @ItsjustJules Despite how reckless the current owner may seem, I doubt he's going to expose himself to legal jeopardy over the privacy of consumer data. He knows how expensive that could be.