I don't know how many Van Halen fans have ever seen this video, but it has bothered me for years that the poster of this video and all the people in the comments assumed Eddie was out of tune, when in reality the synth part is playing in (almost) C-sharp Major while Eddie and Wolfgang are correctly playing in C Major.
I believe they used a recorded synth part, and there was a sample rate mismatch somewhere in the chain which could cause this.
@voltronic I was there that night, and was disappointed in Ed for years afterwards. But then read this not so long ago, though it sort of sounds like passing the buck after Ed passed...:
https://www.guitarworld.com/news/the-true-story-behind-van-halens-infamous-out-of-tune-jump-performance-has-finally-been-revealed
@northernbassist
@BillyBones
Hmm. That's a very interesting story I've never seen. But unless there was a sample rate mismatch in the audio track for that video, the synth track really is playing in C#.
@voltronic That's interesting - and puts paid to the idea of tuning *down* for live 🤔@northernbassist
@BillyBones @northernbassist
Also, I'm no guitarist but I would be surprised if whacking the headstock would make the entire instrument equally out of tune, which is what it sounds like to my ears. Are we assuming a deformed truss rod could do this?
@voltronic On a guitar with a Floyd (Rose trem) it could happen very easily. One problem though is that Ed could take a guitar and quite literally throw it across a room without it going out of tune (he mentioned doing exactly this in a high level guitar manufacturing meeting, per an interview he gave to Total Guitar Magazine 2016), which makes me think there was more going on that night than him losing it.
@BillyBones @northernbassist
I totally didn't think about a tremolo setup. That makes sense.
@voltronic I've had a good few over the years (and still have them on my three VH guitars) and they can be incredibly fickle. I also had a (Vai) Jem but the worst for me was a Paul Gilbert Ibanez. That thing would NOT stay in tune no matter what I did to it, including exorcism 😁
Ironically for this conversation, I traded it years later for a then-newly released Peavey Wolfgang that was spot on all the time 👍
@BillyBones @northernbassist
Here's another thing. Listen to the strain in DLR's voice when he's in his upper range. I sing and teach singing every day, and to me that's not the sound of age and abuse (well, not completely). That's the sound of "shit, I wasn't prepared to sing this in a different key!"
I think I can solve this. I'm going record the synth part myself at 44.1 kHz, and then import it into a 48 kHz project without converting it. My little weekend project.
fascinating story and discussion. thanks for tagging me in.
@northernbassist @BillyBones
OK, I have conducted my investigation and found interesting results.
Short version: It's not a sample rate with the synth. I recorded myself playing the synth part at 44.1 kHz, and then changed its rate to 48 kHz without converting. The result was to put it just about in D major, with the tempo greatly increased as you would expect.
The synth in the 2007 Greensboro performance is straight up tuned to C-sharp major, with the tempo absolutely correct at 130 bpm.
@northernbassist @BillyBones
Four listening files for you of the first 45 seconds of Jump:
1) Rip of album track
2) Me recreating synth part
3) 2007 Greensboro performance
4) My synth part raised a semitone
https://mega.nz/folder/empzBToY#9-R0wK_dzwseEZMlrrSulQ
Conclusion: I believe EVH may have damaged his guitar as reported. He's not quite playing a full semitone under the synth. But somehow the synth part was raised a semitone for this performance. I think the evidence is clear.
@voltronic That is *really* interesting (and I'm blown away by your dedication here!). So can we extrapolate from this that Tom Weber's story (attached here again to save interested parties from scrolling to find it) might well be true? 🤔
@BillyBones
Hmm. Only by half. We can extrapolate that it may be correct as far as EVH's guitar is concerned, but false as far as the synth is concerned, even if the tuning problem wasn't caused by a sample rate mismatch.
'Answered Weber, “It’s not the keyboard sample rate. It had nothing to do with the keyboards.'
That's a demonstrably false statement.
It bothers me because if you consider yourself a big VH fan, I don't know how you can't hear immediately that the synth part is wrong.
Then there's the fact that people don't get how concerts like this work. Even if Eddie and Wolfgang could hear the tuning mismatch it in their monitor mix (which you shouldn't assume) there's no way you're going to retune to match on the fly in a song like this.
Oh, and if Eddie's guitar really was out of tune, his guitar tech probably wouldn't have a job.