One of the most significant differences between myself and a friend of mine is that they are results focused and I am performance minded. This difference causes huge disconnects in how we see the world.
They worked hard most of their life, growing up poor and without support. Working several jobs, sacrificing health, making hard choices ... in their mind the result of all that was "success" so anyone who doesn't work as hard as them is less than or lazy or doesn't deserve as much.
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I am performance minded ... so I tend to focus on everything that I did to get where I am. I also worked hard, made sacrifices, had little support but I don't see the end result of all that as "success" ...I see the PROCESS of all that as a part of several steps that brought me to where I am.
When I look at people who are working hard and struggling ... I see that as a process and I see that as valuable and I recognize what that takes because I remember that process for myself.
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Result focus and performance minded people come at work VERY differently and that is not to say that both ways of seeing things don't have value ... but they have more value as a combined way of seeing an overall system of achievement rather than individually as was of assessing the value or "success" of others.
I would never define a life of misery, trauma, failing health, lost opportunities, anger, judgement, distrust, and lack of support ... as "success" but they do and that says a ton.
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To me life is a journey ... and success or failure is a result of many factors, some that are within our control and some that are out of it.
Performance minded focus means I think the entire process of getting from point A to point B is valuable and necessary and that it doesn't always lead to "success" but that the entire journey is worthwhile if it leads to wisdom. As a result of this outlook, I have more empathy for those who struggle, and I am more willing to lend my support to others.
My friend believes that their pain is an indicator of success and therefore thinks people who want to succeed should suffer.
I believe that my journey and wisdom and growth throughout a difficult process of struggle is more valuable than the end result, so I don't see pain as being a necessity to achieving anything.
These massively different viewpoints of life create irreconcilable differences between us that drastically limit how much positive interaction we can have.
Having a belief that people who don't work hard enough are lazy and that people who are suffering and complain about it or struggle are somehow weak and not deserving of success is abusive ... it is anger ... it is someone who suffered transferring that onto others and wanting everyone to be in as much pain as they were. It's how people who were bullied become bullies. It is how people who suffered come to reconcile and justify it in order to survive and then place that expectation on others.
Understanding why people hurt people isn't hard. People are often motivated by base emotions and those base emotions are simple to track. It takes a lot more effort ... but it's not that difficult.
In that garden of understanding empathy can grow and there can also bloom forgiveness ... not just for the person but for others as well including yourself.
The better you understand yourself, the better you understand others and vice versa.
𝘉𝘦 𝘵𝘰𝘭𝘦𝘳𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘧.
@thewebrecluse Hurt people hurt people.
@mistressticia Yes indeed ... but there is always a reason why ... and understanding people is more valuable than simply labeling and condemning them.
@thewebrecluse Exactly. No argument here. ;-)
@thewebrecluse
I helped invent my discipline, and I certainly observed that once the spirit of doing new things was replaced by routine, the grifters, psychopaths, sneering self promoters appeared. They were not smart enough to actually contribute.Their only skill is self promotion. Business paved the way for this mindset. Open plan offices, 20 hour days, permission to steal from and punish customers, HR depts that protect bullies, is our landscape today. Musk is the purest example.
@thewebrecluse Thank you for this thread! Very thoughtful and insightful.
Someone asked me once if I resented all the bad parts of my earlier life. I used to. But now I see that all of those experiences have made me who I am today, and I like me!
For me, the process is more important than the destination in most cases.
@thewebrecluse
This made me think of something.
This .. thing? It is also something abusers can co-opt and use.
I'm thinking of Elon Musk, the corporate "hardy" who has employees sleeping at the office. One even brought his wife and newborn to the office to sleep there to prove how hardworking he is.
https://nypost.com/2022/12/23/top-elon-musk-assistant-slept-in-twitter-hq-with-wife-newborn-baby/
How messed up is that? 😳
And meanwhile, Elon the Hardy is tanking at least two huge companies that I know of, so it isn't even effective, ya know?
@thewebrecluse
What the heck happened to him? What happened to Elon to mess him up this badly?
Seriously. I wonder.
@thewebrecluse
But people admire it. And it isn't even making Twitter or Tesla better, is the ironic thing.
Food for thought.
Also good morning! 🤗
@janallmac Some of the best corporate businessmen and men in leadership positions are psychopaths. The reasons for this are well documented and he certainly fits the general criteria for it. Its not simply that he is results focused or focused on hard work ... In my thread I'm talking about something far beneath psychopathy.
@thewebrecluse
Yes... I am sure your friend is no psychopath. But maybe those beliefs also leave a person very vulnerable to abuse in the workplace. Sort of like Elon likes to do.
I've run across quite a few people who seem to have a work ethic that has edged over to unhealthy and their corporate bosses are maybe low-key psychopaths (not sure) and they just take advantage of it.
@janallmac My friend borders on sociopathy certainly ... but there is a lot more that goes into that kind of a diagnosis than just a way of reflecting incorrectly on their life experience. It doesn't begin and end there, but the roots certainly can spring from that kind of tainted soil absolutely.
@thewebrecluse
I think I'm even one of the people who had that mindset and got stuck in some bad situations in the past. I agree that it's not success.
@thewebrecluse
Oh!
Gosh... and the older corporate women who almost seem to borderline resent the generous parental leave available to younger corporate women.
It's the same thing, maybe! Right? Bullied-to-bullying, success is suffering.
"I went back to work 30 minutes after my c-section, you should too, you lazy whore!"
No thank you. I'm glad things are hopefully better for people these days. At least, they are where I am now.
@janallmac success is suffering is absolutely a belief from the old days but it has strong roots today as well. Any generation that consider themselves survivors of an age so to speak will often have people who have to find a way to internalize that suffering.
@thewebrecluse
Yep. I hope that mindset changes.
Maybe it's because of industrialization, back in Victorian times, when there were factories with absolutely horrific working conditions. And it got passed down and down and down, to us today.
I guess there still are factories like that. 💔 😨
"Normal" used to be absolutely brutal, and for some people it still is.
@thewebrecluse
Anyway, one lesson I am going to take out of this thread is "Live your life in a way that doesn't leave you vulnerable to sociopaths. And maybe help other people to do the same."
I'm not sure if that was your intention, but here we are. 😁
@janallmac Plenty of people have taken things I've said in completely insane and wrong ways so your interpretation is more than acceptable to me.
I guess if I had an intention, it's just to say that in a day to day sense ... people have REASONS for being the way they are. Good reasons and bad reasons ... but no one behaves any kind of way for no reason. It may not be a reason you understand fully but barring severe mental illness there is usually a reason that can be discerned.
@janallmac I am usually well aware of why I cannot be friends with someone or why I have conflicts with people and it usually arises from a lack of understanding (on their part of themselves). As an abuse survivor I have an automatic inclination towards understanding my circumstances as a protective measure which leads to me pushing forward into analysis of myself and other's behavior regularly. Understanding helps awareness become more keen. Understanding people helps us understand ourselves.
@janallmac Understanding helps curb negativity and anger because there is no collision of hope and reality ... there is only reality. As a stoic ... my focus is always on reality and not guesswork.
@janallmac My friend and I will never be close and our friendship will remain limited because of the damage they suffered and continue to ignore the consequences of. Their lived experience and culture are result focused and they haven't the capacity or desire to analyze themselves and work on their anger issues. So that means ... we really can't ever be more than we are and they can't ever be more than they are. Simple. No anger. No confusion. No judgement. Just facts and reality.
@janallmac I choose to remain in their circle because I believe that my presence is helpful to them in small ways (and they have said as much) and as long as I have zero expectations then I lose nothing by lending my energy and wisdom to their life experience going forward.
@thewebrecluse @janallmac so well said, and I am sorry you suffered in this way. Empathy and thinking small, local and for the future, rather than simple world domination are the critical ingredients. Recognizing that there are infinite options for living in a better society is first, then finding a way convince all those invested in the more brutal way is the hard challenge. It's all cognitive bias. The more one is driven blindly by these biases the harder it is to create a better reality. IMHO
@Romquest @janallmac There are about a handful of cognitive distortions that form the pathogenesis of psychosis ... however, these need to be found in correlation with several other factors and their existence alone isn't enough to suggest a full diagnosis. Having a basis for them surely means there would be a higher chance for psychopathy, but again financial status is not one of these factors.
@Romquest @janallmac I think about the only thing having money helps with is the ability to get away with being a high functioning psychopath and being able to cover your tracks when you slip. But again ... people without financial means to do this function just as well and climb to high levels of status with the same psychological features. It's his brain more than its his money. It's simpler to blame rich people for being rich but mental illness its way more complicated than that.
@thewebrecluse @janallmac
Yep of course you are right. I was trying to speak more broadly. Cognitive bias and threat sensitivity does, (in my understanding), drive actions that end up being destructive in a workplace and society at large. Knee jerk reactions to types of people, facts, or lack of them, or social status, can be quite destructive. Example: Conservative reactions to policies that are forward looking and actually benefit them as a group. Thanks your insights! https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2008530117
@thewebrecluse Thank you for this thread, it has set me up for the week :) Wonderful.
@thewebrecluse
Pain is not necessary to achieve things, though, or at least... yeah, sometimes the process can be painful. But. Performative suffering of the sort I'm thinking of anyway, that is not effective. Or necessary.
But somehow in our society, people really do think you have to suffer endlessly.
Exactly!
In my 12 Step program we often say…
Pain is Gain but Misery is Optional
@janallmac I suppose you could spend time trying to figure out how psychopaths are formed but again ... plenty of people have already attempted that and the research is well documented there as well. The narcissism, the sociopathy, the psychopathy, the generalized mental illness ... all that stuff is pretty easy to see, there is no confusion about what he is or why. He doesn't really require too much analysis.
@janallmac @thewebrecluse Being told yes! Great Idea! endlessly by rich parents, sycophants, gifters hitching their wagon to him. Malignant narcissism. I listened to him on a podcast about military history and he had a coworker on the show with him that had to constantly, gently correct his endless errors of fact. He didn't know the subject but somehow thought he had something to contribute anyway. Why? because he is a billionaire! Money = divinity, obviously.
@Romquest @janallmac Almost everything about him can be explained by psychology and has little to do with how much money he has and more to do with how his brain works - or doesn't depending on your point of view. But again ... I won't argue how you come to understand the actions of someone mentally ill. I only say that he is and money isn't too much of a factor in mental illness to my knowledge. There are plenty of low income psychopaths. 😂
@Romquest @janallmac Do wealthy people breed more psychopaths than low income people? I don't know ... I'm sure there has been some research on it though.
My friend barely remembers their process because it was awful and traumatic for them. They only remember that in the end they "succeeded" and when they think back on what brought them to where they are, they only remember the pain and trauma. That rolls into transference of anger and regret that they place onto others ... it becomes judgement.
Because I valued my process instead of hating it, I don't transfer anything into what I see other doing except empathy and understanding.
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