😠 Although... if your productivity this week did *not* include destroying 2nd Century Roman sculpture as a US tourist crying "blasphemy!" at an Israeli museum...
Yeah, go ahead and call this week win for yourself. And thank you for not destroying parts of our collective history!
@MLClark
Another example in a long line of many in religion being a lead factor in mental disease.
@CinnamonGirlE @MLClark Religion is not a mental illness although this person's sense of entitlement might be. Before passing judgement I'd like to know two things: (1) what did the statue look like before the damage and (2) what do archaeologists think its purpose was. Both are conspicuously missing from the article. The Jerusalem Post is not above using yellow journalism to generate ad revenue at the cost of polarization.
Also, interesting that you think there are times when "blasphemy" could justify destroying ancient history. Most won't agree with you, but it's striking that these are 2nd Century: from a time when Christian leaders were purging every Gnostic text they could find. Personally, I'm curious to see if this person is Jewish (Orthodox), or a vein of Evangelical Christian that appropriates Jewish custom. You certainly find enough of those visiting Israel to "prepare" for the end of days!
@MLClark I did not say that but there are a few civil war era statues that I wouldn't shed any tears over being destroyed. This American acted from a position of privilege or authority that they did not have. (I wonder if they ever visited ANY American museums.) They acted disrespectfully and destroyed an artifact from the past. Even if I disagree with an ancient practice, we are better off preserving the past so we can learn from it.
@MLClark I too am curious about the person's background but they're likely a far-right, pseudo-christian, MAGA-cult, poorly-educated, never-been-out-of-their-hometown snowflake. Reality is going to come as a shock.
@danielbsmith @MLClark
Perhaps I stated it wrong. Let me clarify. Religion, per se, isn't an illness. But for sure some people take it into all kinds of delusional thinking. This is simply what I meant.
From my own perspective, organized religion has moved so far from the mark from what it is supposed to be, that people are completely lost. Do I believe that many of the "believers" hold delusional thinking? Yes.
@SunAcrossWater @danielbsmith @MLClark
Exactly. Denying science even though proven. Good article.
@CinnamonGirlE @SunAcrossWater @MLClark I have to admit that the majority of my brothers and sisters are not on very good terms with science but that's because they don't understand it. My understanding of science increases my faith. The truth is nobody has to choose between the two. I find that they fit together like a glove.
@SunAcrossWater @CinnamonGirlE @MLClark It can. It doesn't have to. Humans have both a mind and emotions. It seems to me there is room for the expression of both. You don't have to be religious to express emotions or make poor decisions. I'm thinking of rave parties and drunk driving but I'm sure you can think of other examples.
Not exactly. We atheists aren't exactly fans of faith, but it's important to apply more rigour to how we talk about such studies.
These two studies looked at proclivity toward believing fake news based on a) pre-existing delusional beliefs, b) dogmatic thinking, c) religious fundamentalism, and d) low performance on analytical tests.
One cannot extrapolate from those studies the conclusion that "religion", writ large, makes people more deluded.
It's a common phenomenon for we atheists to rest on our laurels at having "not bought into the god delusion", and then lean into the first science-y result that affirms our pre-existing views without looking at methodology and otherwise performing more careful scientific literacy.
We too can be and are moved by emotions - and we're never at greater risk of undermining our stated convictions in reason and empiricism than when we forget that.
@MLClark @SunAcrossWater @danielbsmith
My point is the same. "Religion" encourages heavy reliance on emotion which can then discard critical or analytical thinking. This then leads to delusional thinking. Pair this with someone already mentally disturbed and it's a recipe for the problems we see.
I don't necessarily consider myself to be an atheist. More that I believe there could be something after this; just not the bull the evangelicals (and others) are peddling.
Nonreligious, then! Gotcha.
My defense here is simply of scientific literacy, against the misuse of study results to fuel confirmation bias.
There are many grand narratives in our lives--nationalism, religion, ethnic history, family destiny--that forge irrational emotional pathways. The theist/atheist debate can distract us from paying attention to more far-reaching behaviours, & make non-theists overconfident in a closer relationship to reason.
@MLClark @SunAcrossWater @danielbsmith
I do see what you are saying. And I agree. Beliefs are not as crucial as actions. At least in my book. And yes, many narratives which can then foster irrational thinking. And religion isn't at the base of it. But it is frequently involved and twisted.
As someone said earlier, studies can say anything we want them to. Either direction.
I just stay in my lane, help when and where I can, and try like crazy to live in peace.
It's *so* frustrating that so many people use their beliefs (whatever they might be) simply to cause harm and sow division, eh?
Thank you for sharing not only your thoughts here, but also the really tough experiences with hypocrisy among people in your communities. That sounds truly exhausting.
When one can't even take a person at their word, because their actions differ so much from what they "preach", it really is tough to build a better world.
@SunAcrossWater @danielbsmith
@MLClark @SunAcrossWater @danielbsmith
It's all so truly unnecessary, it really isn't that diffficult to let others be. Or lend a helping hand.
The hypocrisy is astounding.
@CinnamonGirlE @MLClark @SunAcrossWater This was a good talk. I'm more or or less in agreement with you both.
I do have one comment though: I don't believe blind faith exists. Faith, yes, but never blind. Nobody comes to faith in God (or anything else) without an expectation that God exists and is good based on prior knowledge or trust. This is more explicit for adults whereas children trust their parents, their parents trust God, so they trust God. I distrust purely emotional conversions.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Daniel. The divide between "reason" & "emotion" is a false dichotomy, because we always reason through "affective" subject-positions.
Young children are extremely credulous beings, so their form of "faith" absolutely counts as emotionally driven rather than carefully reasoned. But the term "emotion" should never be treated as a pejorative. We're all emotional beings, shaped by what we were born into. Nothing wrong with that. It's only human.
@SunAcrossWater The person who decided to destroy it did so for a reason. We're told it was blasphemy but that can be a lot of things. I'd just like to know the full story. It doesn't change what happened or my opinion that the artifact should not have been destroyed. I guess I'm trying to get into that person's mind to try and understand their motivation.
@danielbsmith
Morning, Daniel! I'm not going to speak for Cinny, but I understand that seeing someone align religion with mental illness can be upsetting. A lot of secular folks are deeply frustrated by how many global conflicts, along with forms of domestic abuse, find their foundation in Abrahamic and Hindu texts. However, people find all sorts of lousy reasons to enact intolerance, and giving someone the excuse of their faith "making them do it" definitely detracts from personal agency. 👍