Deconstruction ponderings:
When they tell you to believe what the Bible says about God, are they saying you need to believe in God -- or that you need to believe what the Bible says about him/her? When you pray and something good happens, is it because you believed God would do it, or was it going to happen anyway? If everything good is due to God's goodness, why aren't bad things due to his badness? I have so many questions......
This is just adds layers to the layers I'm already dealing with in my brain. π€
"God is a good and loving father." I have no idea what the fuck a good and loving father is like, because my dad wasn't one, and my stepfather certainly wasn't one. How can I have faith in something I don't know anything about? Secondly, if he is a good and loving father, why didn't he stop the abuse so many of us suffered throughout our childhoods? What good did it do us to be mistreated?
Please don't think I'm asking you for answers, because some of these questions don't have answers. It's just where my head is right now. How can he sit by and watch the evil going on in the world today and not do a damn thing about it? What is the purpose of genocide, murder, rape, slavery, cruelty, starvation, racism, bigotry, ableism, and hypocrisy? What do they achieve? How do they help us become better people? How do they point us to God? I can't see it.
@Oma_Trisha
I know *so* many folk, myself included who struggle with that.
I suppose, God is not *a* but *the* good and loving Father. The ideal. The perfect example.
God is also the good and perfect Mother.
Like the hen who shelters her chicks beneath her wings.
As for the other part. To be truly loving, is perhaps to not interfere, even when someone is doing something awful??
What good came of it?
cont...
Well, for one thing, had I not known the pain of abuse, I could not support my friend as I am doing right now with understanding of the torment it causes.
I'm not saying that's *why* God let it happen, but that God takes this broken vessel and makes it into something truly beautiful.
Like Japanese Kintsugi. We're not thrown onto the trash heap. We are transformed into something which brings blessing.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I don't believe. I'm struggling because I would sacrifice my own life to protect my children. End of story. If anyone ever hurt my kids there would be hell to pay. Here on planet earth, every single day children are neglected, abandoned, beaten, and brutalized, and very few perpetrators ever pay any kind of price for what they've done -- while victims will pay for those acts every day for the rest of their lives.
What is the point of allowing a child's innocence to be stolen by a selfish son of a bitch who can't control his hormones or urges? Why sit by as children are beaten and degraded and insulted and tormented by their caregivers? I don't see the purpose in it. It's cruelty. How can love be that cruel? It makes absolutely no sense at all. Where is the justice for ruining a child's life? What's the point of all that pain? It doesn't help anything or anybody. It's senseless.
I could have been anything. I'm smart. I'm really fucking smart. However, thanks to the treatment I received as a child, I grew up feeling like I would never be successful at anything, that I would always be a failure -- nothing more than a disappointment.
And then, when we fail to realize our potential, they call us lazy or unmotivated.
I just don't get the point. Where is the love in any of that? Why allow it to happen in the first place? Why not stop it before it starts?
@Oma_Trisha
I honestly don't have a helpful answer.
Theologically it comes down to free will. God never forces us to be good. It's a choice. Right back to Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. That means there are always victims of those who choose evil.
However, as an abuse survivor too, I have known God's comfort, strength and power in my own life. I've been set free from the majority of the bitterness, though I've never forgotten the harm.
I don't know what else to say.
But I'm here. With you π
More than anything, I appreciate you allowing me to finish this frustration without judgment or push back. It's just where I am. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand the concept of free will -- because it's not really free, is it? My freedom to do as I choose should, for all intents and purposes, end where someone else's freedom not to be affected by my choices begins. I shouldn't be free to assault someone else. That violates their free will.
Thank you for listening.
How can the ultimate example of love and compassion sit there and watch all the ugly, hateful, disgusting things people do to each other, and not do a thing to intervene? I get the concept of free will, but is it really free will when someone can impose their will on another person without their consent?
Like I said. I have so many questions.......
@Oma_Trisha
It seems so counter-intuitive I know.
You see, God has never really *forced* anything on anyone. Humans do that. To each other.
Even with the Hebrews vs Pharoah in Egypt, Pharoah was warned of the consequences but always given a choice.
Oftentimes, those consequences are eternal, not temporal and I *know* that's of little comfort to those hurting *right now*.
I wish I had the answers you need. I pray that you find them.
Thank you. At this point, there are no answers. Giving all the credit to God when something good happens but blaming humans when things go wrong just makes no sense to me any longer.
Pharaoh really didn't have a choice. It even says in the Bible God hardened his heart so he could use him as an object lesson by punishing his entire country for something God knew he was going to do before he was even conceived. That's the kind of thing that blows my mind.
@Oma_Trisha @stueytheround It frustrates me a bit that people actually think there is a being that is the architect of all life and creation, and they also think such a being would come down and play toy soldiers with people that way.
I joke about my Dad not ever coming back from getting cigarettes and all, but the thought that a supreme creator being would make a pharoah be mean and hurt people so he could punish the pharoah and his people seems... stupid.
Two main things bother me.
First of all, the concept of free will is a copout if God is all powerful, all seeing, and all knowing. Are we really free to do whatever we want if he knows what we're going to do before we do it?
Secondly, why does he get credit for everything good, but we either blame ourselves or some invisible evil entity for everything bad when the good guy could have stopped it? It's almost like it's all built on guilt and shame.
And it wasn't just Pharaoh. Look what Hitler did. Look what white colonizers did to indigenous people when they came to North a
America. Look at how our government interfered in the governments of other countries for decades, leading to an immigration crisis those who claim to worship God blame on desperate people instead of the ones who caused it? It seems to be rather one-sided from where I stand.
I won't even get into holy wars, forced conversions, burning people at the stake, drowning them, or dismembering them in the name of a loving deity. It's irrational to think he/she/it created an entire planet full of people just to play favorites and condemn 98% of them for the benefit of the chosen ones.
It's not easy looking at this through different eyes after half a century of conditioning, but I can't keep pretending everything they told me was true.
@Oma_Trisha Everything you were told _wasn't_ true.
People long ago made up stories to explain the world and their place in it. The people who made up those stories were also flawed human beings like everyone else. Sometimes they told stories appropriate to their age, sometimes they made up stories to justify their own rule, sometimes they just made up silly shit because they were silly.
We can make our own stories.
That's why I think it's so important I tell my story, even if I don't get it published until I'm 90. I want people to know what it was like inside the Evangelical movement from someone who was there for almost 50 years. I saw things a lot of other people don't even notice because I was part of the music ministry. I didn't just go for the service and then leave until the next week. I was there every damn time the doors opened.
@Oma_Trisha I would like to know your story.
@Oma_Trisha @stueytheround People like blaming god for their failings and decisions, or putting words into the mouths of gods they create, so they can claim their own authority somehow comes from god.
We don't need to buy into that narrative. And if there is a God, you can talk to them yourself, you don't need an intercessor.
@AskTheDevil 100% this! I am often asked to pray for folk, which is a delight and a privilege, but I also often remind people that they're allowed to talk to God themselves. @Oma_Trisha
@stueytheround @AskTheDevil @Oma_Trisha Not only allowed, but expected to do so.
@JolieSaboteuse @stueytheround @Oma_Trisha We're all released into the universe on our own recognizance. No matter who tries to tell anyone otherwise.
@stueytheround @Oma_Trisha To me, the main value in praying for someone else, is so that they know someone at least cares enough about them to pray on their behalf.
I don't think prayer has magic powers or can heal the sick. I think it communicates something to other humans, but if anyone is listening, they do not appear to intervene.
I'm pretty old, and I have yet to see a sign that prayer does anything but change how people think. That's not nothing, but it's also no substitute for work.
Absolutely. I can pray by myself if I feel the urge. I can sing right here if I want to do so. I can read my Bible by myself if I have the urge to pick it up. I don't need someone else to intervene for me.
@Oma_Trisha @stueytheround From my perspective, it's a little weird seeing people insist that you can't achieve your purpose without a book that didn't exist for the billions of years before it came out.
I was here before people made religions. Humans existed as humans for far more of their time without anything like religion as with. I note that during that time, there wasn't a lot of war and pollution, too.
@Oma_Trisha @stueytheround I feel like people often miss the point of spirituality, even religion. They use it to replace their own will and ability and risk and responsibility, instead of using it to increase their understanding of self and find their own place in the world.
And I assure you, the being that made Creation didn't do it so you could stifle yourselves and pretend you're unworthy.
You were worth it before you were ever made.
Or you wouldn't have been.
@Oma_Trisha @stueytheround I think part of the confusion stems from the idea that God is standing around, like an invisible human with human perceptions of the world, managing your affairs.
As if _you're_ micro-managing each of your _mitochondria_ all day!
In any case, the primary method by which the divine does intervene can be seen in any bathroom mirror.
If you want God's help, there's your thumbs and large forebrain.
You're welcome! ; )
(Some assembly required)
@Oma_Trisha @stueytheround Remember. What people tell you about God, or about yourself does not in any way change who you are, or who (if anyone) God is.
There are stories told that the Creator of the universe wants people to be suffering, and likes to criticize their fabric choices and who they screw.
You don't have to believe them. Lots of stories are there to mislead rather than edify.
Tell your own story.
I've reached a point where I refuse to blindly accept stories handed down and written by patriarchal men attempting to explain what can't be explained by attributing good to the deity they created in their own image while blaming humans for being human and fucking up on a regular basis. If we can be bad on our own, we can be good on our own. Too much evil has been done in the name of a supposedly benevolent God.
@Oma_Trisha I've never been a fan of the practice of blaming god for bad things or giving credit to god for good things we do.
For one, if you do something _you_ did that. Even if some god created the universe, it's not like the person who welded your car together can take credit for your ability to drive.
People often use god as an excuse to not exercise their power, or to excuse their own behavior or failure. To deny their own agency and responsibility, or to blame another for their actions.
@AskTheDevil Some of the best music I've ever heard by people who believe in God, has been about this.
Don Francisco's "It's my own fault" comes to mind.
Faith in God is not abdication of responsibility. It's healthy to have pride in our achievements and it's healthy to admit our failings.
For me, where God comes into that is variable. I can thank God for my talent and successes and be grateful for forgiveness where I need it. I can also turn to God for comfort, care and strength.
@Oma_Trisha
@stueytheround @Oma_Trisha That sounds a lot more healthy than the way some noisy people unfortunately do it.
: )
For me, my relationship with "God" is that I will eventually have to look them in the eye, and it won't be them judging me, it will be me knowing what I've done or not done.
We've got the tools. We have the two boats and a helicopter. I think it's up to us to make something of what we have.
in Jung's analysis, deep and insurmountable problems with Christianity resulted from trying to understand god as only good, and relegating evil to an Other, outside, whether it be satan or Homo sapiens.
it's a deep and prolonged analysis worked out over many texts.
he sees the good/evil split and opposition as insurmountable as promulgated, causing all kinds of psychological problems, which we are now witnessing.
he saw the horror developing and describes its advent.
@Oma_Trisha
Thinking off the top of my head here.
Last question first.
I don't think it works like that.
For believers, generally, we credit God with goodness occurring because that is the outcome of people wittingly or unwittingly behaving in line with God's overarching character of love.
"Badness" occurs when humans don't do that. When we act out of selfishness, greed, hatred etc.
As for believing what the Bible says about God, it's pretty tricky to do so if you don't believe in a God!