I’m not usually pro-corporation but I’m a little puzzled how you can have a monopoly on your own product—isn’t that kind of what capitalism is about?
I’m puzzled as to what the end-game is here?
Are all businesses required to give competitors access? What about Microsoft? Or are they not a “monopoly” because they run on other companies hardware?
Justice has a very weird and confusing case that really doesn’t fit the concept of monopoly.
https://moneywise.com/news/sen-elizabeth-warren-calls-out-apple-for-dirty-tactics
@feloneouscat Since Apple controls a major portion of telecommunications through their platform, and that telecommunications is part of general communications systems that are legally required to interoperate, when Apple prevents other services from using all features or accessing their phones, they're using monopoly tactics to push people into abandoning competitors.
They're unfairly using market control on something meant to be interoperable for the community.
And yet they do interoperable.
As for the “general communications” attempt, we can agree that no phone manufacturer HAS to have text communication, correct? In fact, there are many phones (aka dumb phones) that have ZERO ability to text.
Is the argument that ALL communications (I.e FB, et Al) are required by law to have APIs?)
As an engineer for over 40 years, I’m anxious to see that law.
I’m at a loss as Microsoft and Google (aka Android) has faced no such pressure.
Having a “monopoly” on the product you make is not illegal.
This is merely a bogus argument. Apple has not prevented anyone from making an app to communicate. I do so all the time with FB messenger.
What am I missing?
Perhaps being an engineer is clouding my understanding as to what seems obvious to everyone else?
@feloneouscat That happens to me a lot. Not just because I am an engineer (software, not the good kind of engineer), but because I'm weird.
But I've had a lot more time than most to observe people while being weird.
Often, what would be efficient for an application in a perfect world goes wonky because of the human element. Greed, foolishness, etc.
@feloneouscat We currently really have two giant monopolies controlling the entire phone market. Android at least licenses its OS out to different phone manufacturers, but between them, they have almost the entire smartphone market locked up.
Phones, like everything else, use communication standards and protocols that are meant to be agreed-on, so for instance, people who buy one brand of phone can still talk to people on another. Same with broadcast devices.
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@feloneouscat One of the things Apple does is refuse to use the standard protocol for text messaging that carriers and phone providers (smart and dumb phones) use. This strips formatting, attachments, and other features. It's only broken because Apple wants it that way, and their CEO's response is if you don't like it, buy all Apple stuff.
So that alone is likely basis for some of the troubles Apple has.
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@feloneouscat The color of the bubble is not the issue. The stripping out of other data and metadata, causing a fully-functional message to appear broken, unformatted, or without images or other content (done to make it appear other phones are the problem) is the issue.
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@feloneouscat
It would be like if a giant TV manufacturer got 2/3 of the market for TVs and broadcast towers, and broadcast signals that stripped out the color from transmissions going to any TVs but the ones they make, or from any programs that didn't pay them a fee.
Antitrust has little to do with who made something. It has to do with when a company controls so much of a market that they can set the rules however they like, harming customers and competition.
@feloneouscat When a company controls multiple levels of a market they have enormous leverage that can allow them to manipulate and control that market in ways that prevent competition, innovation, and choice.
For instance, Elon Musk can be as obnoxious as he wants, because he can restrict Starlink access. Or Apple can force people to use weird non-standard expensive connectors (until the EU stopped them!), or strip out message data from people's messages.
You keep trying to argue that a protocol is “standard” when in fact there is rarely a single protocol. The US at one point had FIVE different cellphone protocols (let the market decide and you end up with multiple competing protocols). Are any of them “standard”?
No.
Are connectors “standard? No. What your argument is devolves into “until a law is passed, it isn’t standard” which is an interesting take. It’s how laws work, not how engineering works.
“Non-standard expensive connectors”
I’m missing the part that is illegal. The military uses non-standard expensive connectors. Worse, they use non-standard protocols.
But your argument is they need to be interoperable? Or can the US government be a monopoly of its own hardware? This argument falls apart rather quickly.
Your TV issue is ludicrous. Apple did no such thing.
They make a better product in their own ecosystem. Good for them. They are popular because they are better product. This is like complaining that Tesla is the most popular EV because they control the majority of the charging stations (that for a while only were operable with Tesla vehicles).
They were more popular because the challengers were not as good.
JUSTICE: “And as outlined in our complaint, we allege that Apple has consolidated its monopoly power not by making its own products better — but by making other products worse.”
How does Apple make other companies products WORSE?
This literally makes ZERO sense.
@AskTheDevil “the color of the bubble” actually is the issue as it indicates an SMS message.
MERRICK GARLAND: As any iPhone user who has ever seen a green text message or received a tiny, grainy video can attest, Apple's anticompetitive conduct also includes making it more difficult for iPhone users to message with users of non-Apple product.
They literally are mad because they don’t know that the green bubble means SMS protocol.
In the bad old days, telecom companies (NOT APPLE) charged people for using SMS. That is why the bubbles are green (or as some wag put it, “the green color is to let you know you are spending money”).
Now most telecoms offer unlimited messaging. The green bubbles are a holdover, NOT designed to be discriminatory. The fact Justice doesn’t know this shows you the lawsuit is ignorant of history.
This is why the lawsuit is hilarious.
@feloneouscat @AskTheDevil from a legal perspective the DOJ will have a very difficult time with this. This is very similar to the multiple lawsuits brought to stop mergers that have failed, but are admittedly brought to put pressure on industry. Unless the law changes, they will not win and if it does change, then the Switch, Playstation, and Xbox are going to be forced open too.
“Unless the law changes, they will not win and if it does change, then the Switch, Playstation, and Xbox are going to be forced open too.”
And THEN I can bitch at GM for using their own dashboard system instead of Apple’s CarPlay which works (vs GM’s system which is buggy as hell).
If Justice does succeed this will do incredible and long lasting damage to business and increase costs for consumers.
1/2
2/2 Because businesses will have to assure that their systems will have to be interoperable WHETHER OR NOT anyone really wants them to be.
As someone who has led design of hardware as well as software based solutions, this will have a chilling effect on novel solutions.
Tesla created a NON-STANDARD design because there was no legal requirement to do so. If Justice gets it’s way, the first design will become the “standard”—even if it is crappy (like SMS).
What most people do not see, or understand, is how much time and effort goes into creating API’s (as well as the time-intensive testing that is required). This will quite literally KILL small competitors, not help them—because THEY TOO will have to assure that everyone has access to THEIR protocols.
This is a nightmare.
Today, I can create a protocol without Justice peering over my shoulder. Justice is talking about a cost they do not understand (nor do many others).
Irrelevant. Apple uses its own protocol.
That isn’t illegal.
There are MULTIPLE companies that use MULTIPLE protocols and NONE are standard.
The SMS protocol is a horrible protocol with nonexistent security. Apple DOES have limited support for it.
There is no legal requirement that it must provide access for FB or any other protocol. Just because people want it doesn’t mean Apple is breaking a law.
This is mostly incorrect.
The ONLY legal standard is the phone part.
I can LEGALLY have a network (X) that provides no or limited API. I have not broken any laws.
Likewise, your argument is that a private company MUST allow other companies to use their PRIVATE infrastructure—for reasons.
Just because something exists doesn’t mean you HAVE to allow access.
But this is moot as Apple does allow access. The color of the bubbles is irrelevant to interoperability.
There are more than two phone OS’s. No one has prevented installing another OS on a iPhone.
And, no, a private network does NOT HAVE to incorporate a public standard.
The ONLY legal requirement is the phone be operable with the telecommunications network (aka plain old telephone service).
AFAIK there is NO LEGAL requirement that an Android must be able to talk to the Apple message network. Or WeChat or anything else.
https://liliputing.com/now-you-can-boot-linux-on-apple-devices-with-a7-and-a8-series-chips/
@feloneouscat Actually, Tesla agreed to a deal where their charging stations would be Tesla-only at first, but would then have to be opened up to other vehicles (with an adapter).
Similarly, power and communication lines, even if put in for one company (and partly because they get tax dollars and tax breaks for this), have to be able to be usable and interoperable by other operators in the power or communications grid.
@feloneouscat
None of this is new stuff just for picking on Apple. Some of the technical specifics are a little new, but there is existing law and precedent for limiting these types of activities.
We've just had poor antitrust enforcement for decades. Since Reagan, really.
I think there is a misunderstanding going on here.
Antitrust is preventing others from entering the market (Bell telephone is an excellent example). The controlled everything from the phones to the lines. Vertical integration that limited others from entering the market (stringing identical phone lines for multiple phone companies?)
That is monopoly.
No one cares when Apple was a niche computer company; when iPhone was a new thing.
1/2
Other way around. Other car manufacturers agreed on the NACS standard and Tesla obliged.
Power companies agree because there are engineering reasons that have nothing to do with legal reasons.
Apple is not acting as a monopoly. You are not REQUIRED to buy an iPhone to have a smart phone. They do not prevent others from having their own messaging protocols. If I wanted to have a messaging app with Catalina’s private protocol, that’s perfectly legal.
@AskTheDevil
Cell phones MUST interoperate with phone networks. That is law. Apple, along with every other cellphone manufacturer, does. There is no illegal monopoly going on.
Likewise, their Messaging app DOES allow operation with Android. Whether the message bubble is green or blue is irrelevant as it is only seen one iPhone, not on Android. I’m puzzled why that is even an issue.
How is the color of a message bubble an interoperation issue? This seems rather ludicrous.