@thereal_renaissance_man I agree that the system is broken. However, I think Bernie has enough support to force change. He could have done a live stream during the debates and for every commercial he makes his points. Him or his followers eventually make enough noise that parties and networks can't ignore. Eventually everyone thinks parties and networks fear him. They probably do now. But if he's an Independent, they can't short his delegates.

@L_D_G
I don't disagree. But I think he has been able to grow his base each time *because* he took advantage of the access and funding he gets as a "Democrat". The question is "When is his base big enough that he can count on it to back him as an independent?"
*Maybe* he had enough support leftover from 2016 that he could have done it this year... but maybe not. And this would have been a terrible year to test whether Trump could be defeated when multiple opponents run against him.

@L_D_G
And that's another issue at play here... He'd have to win the electoral college. The whole process has been heavily rigged to a two party system where those two parties *must* have *huge* infrastructure in place. The bar for entry is very high. The party machines are disturbingly complex and expensive.

@thereal_renaissance_man that's the thing. The fear of Trump has forced everyone to Biden while alienating a bunch of voters. I would have thought that especially after 2016, Sanders and followers wouldn't trust the DNC. Guess it was just the Chairwoman that was rigged, huh?

You make a good point about the electoral college, but at least he would have been in the general election.

Now in a field that once had Kamala, Warren, Buttigieg, and Bernie...the choice is Biden?

@thereal_renaissance_man also...if a second term for Trump isn't the time to test Independent...when is?

@L_D_G
Trump's base, and the GOP in general, are immune to his asshattery. His second term is not seriously in peril because of his destructive, immoral, or illegal activities - his core base love those things.
The issue is that, more than ever, partisanship is king and *everyone*, internal and external, is exploiting that to influence the outcome.
It is simply a fact right now, that a third party in a two party system makes exploitation and influence easier and more likely.

@thereal_renaissance_man partisanship ship is really only king because Trump has made the whole party radioactive.

But then Joe Rogan says he likes Bernie and AOC disavows him. Come on.

@L_D_G
AOC has not disavowed him. That is disinformation spin. She continued to support him to the end, but she was playing a pragmatic game and is attempting to maximize progressive influence in other seats as well. She also has an exceptionally hard hit district and is doing her best to handle really, really demanding circumstances.
The GOP has learned that they can act without reprisal and there is enough voter support to get them elected to do whatever they want. Deceit does not cost them.

@thereal_renaissance_man good spin when you type in AOC Bernie or AOC Rogan and every link points to a distancing.

@L_D_G
Offended Bernie-bros (and the Russian imitators) are their own worst enemies.

@thereal_renaissance_man and it's not that I don't believe you...I just don't see supporting arguments. If the distancing is a lie, fine. I've been lied to and believe it. I'd just like to see proof it's a lie.

@L_D_G
There was distancing, but not rejection. She was pragmatically directing her limited influence and energy towards the wide array of progressive candidates since Bernie was doing as well as he could without her.
The lie was in the statements that she rejected him. Those lies were based on hurt feelings and/or intent to sow doubt and chaos. Not strictly lies, but not exactly truth.

@thereal_renaissance_man maybe, but it's hard to not confuse one for the other... especially in a presidential campaign... especially when the campaign is going vs Trump.

Bad optics. Democrats threw a lot at Trump just like they did Bush and it only stood to fracture the party.

@L_D_G
Because there was not a coherent message behind their actions. Yes, they threw a lot - and it felt like a bunch of random stones. There was no unifying message explaining the motivation, so it was vulnerable to the "they just hate me" message.

@L_D_G
Agreed. Biden is not my optimal choice at all. I really wanted Bernie or Warren. I see the brokenness, but I don't know what the evolutionary solution is. And, though there is *never* a great time for it, I fear a revolution under the current circumstances.

@thereal_renaissance_man I mean, Trump has even alienated republicans.

He's the guy that beat Hillary.

I would think that this is the perfect time for a revolution when tensions are this high. The choices right now are bad and worse and I don't know what the confidence is in Biden, but I imagine if Bernie was running as an Independent, he'd still be there and you wouldn't be thinking Biden or bust.

@L_D_G
In my opinion, Trump didn't beat Hillary. Hillary lost to a more accomplished manipulation machine. Trump was a pawn.

And the current world, overrun with chaos and fear, with pandemic run wild, is not the optimal place to attempt rational organized revolution. It would be melee and slaughter.

@thereal_renaissance_man if Trump wins a second term, 2024 at least will have someone new.

However, is that when people decide to go for a less extreme (either direction) voice or does the sword of Damocles go to the other side?

Stabilization might be easier with someone new. Stabilization is not a revolution though.

@L_D_G
My stance has been: GOP are evil, Dems are less so. Getting dems in office is not the solution, but it is a requirement before we can move to a solution.
And yes, this is quite likely to end in a continuous shift from one party's belligerent and punitive control to the other's until we revolt and force change. Both are using chaos to benefit the wealthy, they are just doing it with varying degrees of chaos and destruction. Dem's abuse is easier to tolerate.

@thereal_renaissance_man so in 4 years when it's likely a democrat gets elected (more likely than now), is that the time for revolution or does blue just take the win...or does someone actually try something?

@L_D_G
A group significantly weakens its position if it prematurely resorts to violence when other non-violent options exist.
Constructive change is impossible under Trump, but is possible (with great pressure and influence) under Dems.
Protest of any kind will be met with crushing force under Trump and is, quite simply, self-defeating under the pandemic. If he continues in his current destruction of democracy and consolidation of power, there may be no choice.
But that time has not come yet.

@thereal_renaissance_man I haven't been thinking in terms of violence so much as finally getting a 3rd party candidate some traction. I don't think it requires as much violence as it does confidence.

@L_D_G
Aggressive and persistent protests and pressure are the only way things will change. It has to be significantly more painful and threatening to re-election than loss of corporate/PAC/lobbyist funding - because everyone knows they will lose the funding if they give in to meaningful change.

I've heard and (if I'm being honest) spoken, more about Torches and Pitchforks or Guillotines than I ever have in my life before. #eattherich has become less of a catchy statement and more a viable political strategy. I, for one, am just looking for backup before I start lighting torches.

@thereal_renaissance_man @L_D_G

@Heucuva8 @L_D_G
There are still avenues left to influence and force meaningful change without resorting to literal pitch forks and torches.

I'm open to the idea, but when the people who would actually *DO* the changing are too busy suckling at the tests of Big Business, and most of the public brainwashed by talking points and blatantly false information, that comes unsubstantiated from Corporate thinktanks... it's hard to imagine the endgame plays out with less blood and fire. Only question I have is, how long until that point?

@thereal_renaissance_man @L_D_G