There are certainly people who are taking advantage of the hatred, the division, and the strife. Like Fox News, Ben Shapiro, etc.

But the real villain, the real enemy, are the algorithms designed to take advantage of you, to use you, to discard you, to do what it is told to do without consequence of what the actions are.

To engage you. To manipulation your emotions. To bring you content that keeps you hating...... because hate drives clicks, hate makes you watch.

6/x

If you want to save the world, stop the division, stopping the grifters won't stop it.

You have to go after the corporations. Meta. Google. Apple. All of them, make these algorithms illegal. Ban them. Stop them.

The evil isn't coming from the other side, it's coming from where you are not looking.

The question is, what do we do about it? How do we explain it to people like my parents who are barely capable of using Facebook and email?

What do we do about it?

7/7

@quinnsentialOne the tough part of all of this is that even if you got rid of the algorithms, magically they all stopped tomorrow...

So many people are so far down their preferred rabbit hole that they personally would continue to push their preferred narratives.

Sure, algorithms are a big part of why so much RW content propagates

But a lot of that is also organically shared bc people are so deep into their ecosystem that they wish to share that information to the exclusion of all else.

@quinnsentialOne a lot of people incorrectly believe that (inset bogeyman here) is going to ruin they and their family's lives or outright destroy them, because enough other people told them it would.

We focus a lot on "grifters" and I'm not going to say people selling shit takes for cash aren't part of the problem

I am going to offer that I think too many well-meaning people have dismissed too many True Believers as simply grifters, and that's a big problem.

@The757Progressive My view is from my own perspective.

I didn't fall into the hole because I was a true believer.

I don't believe my family are true believers either.

I was a believer who didn't have anything else to believe. My beliefs were made up for me, and I embraced them because I saw nothing else.

That is the danger I see.

@quinnsentialOne hm I'll have to think about that one.

You've stumped me a bit lol.

@The757Progressive Of course, I agree there will be true believers.

But I don't think most are victims.

I look at my family like victims, and I want to find a way to heal them.

Maybe it's stupid or naive, but what other choice do I have? Just let them go?

@quinnsentialOne it's neither stupid nor naive to wait to heal the ones you love.

Nobody ever wants to let their family go.

Sometimes some people find there is no choice. Hopefully it won't come to that for you.

I don't want to sound like I am "disagreeing" with anything you're saying, because I think it's all valid and important to discuss.

I guess one thing that does puzzle me is perhaps the weight being assigned to the algorithms?

@quinnsentialOne what I mean by "weight" is

If I am understanding correctly, I get the sense you feel the algorithms are almost totally to blame?

I understand the position but I would inquire as to where human agency comes in here?

Are people so bombarded by algorithms that they do not have agency to not be drawn into them, and thus have their beliefs formed for them?

@The757Progressive No, people do have their own agency.

But it's getting harder and harder for people to be agents of their own identity when you're being directed by the machines telling you more and more what your agency is.

@quinnsentialOne

Machines may be telling people what The Purveyors of Information *think* their identity should be, because of reasons.

But people still have the ability to reject those algorithms by seeking out their own info / not clicking on suggested content.

Algorithms certainly point people in the wrong direction, 100%. However I do wonder if there's something latent that is also drawing people to those links beyond "a machine said I should click this".

@The757Progressive It is really hard to reject the machine when it is everything you see.

Have you ever seen what a Google search or Facebook feed looks like from a MAGA perspective?

It would really throw you for a loop.

@quinnsentialOne I haven't, but.

I'm not sure how to frame it.

If someone searches (insert question or subject here)

Like

Let's say "is Biden really president"

Sure they are going to get a bunch of Qult material saying "no" but, it's likely you'll get "normie" stuff like NYT or someone "fact checking" it.

If they choose to go down the "no" path...

Are the algorithms possibly just exploiting latent biases or presumptions?

@The757Progressive But this is looking at it from a way too logical frame of reference.

By the time people have reached the point "Is Biden really president?" they are already in deep.

And a Google search will give them a thousand articles telling them Biden isn't president.

@quinnsentialOne Do you know how someone might have even "started" down this path?

What's the gateway? Where does the fall begin?

If you know, or have a theory, lol.

@The757Progressive However, you've got to remember as well.

Republicans are already in a bubble of Republican news.

But, it can suck in non-Republicans too.

I do know former Democrats who fell into the hole and are now in super deep.

@quinnsentialOne So if someone doesn't reject it out of hand immediately, they are pulled in?

I mean I've read some outlandish shit over the years and always dismissed it.

Is it because I'm not predisposed to believing any of it?

Are they sucked in bc they are predisposed?

This should be a thesis, it's quite a subject!

@The757Progressive From an outsider, someone who isn't really leftist. I think everyone lives in a media bubble now. But, I think the Democrat bubble is less harmful than the Republican bubble. Because a lot of the content is about helping people and injustice. So, the algorithm on the left pushes leftists to similar content.

That's not me saying the algorithm is harmless on the left. It's doing what it does there too.

There's still future danger in that if it snowballs to violence.

@quinnsentialOne no disagreement.

I will note that where one falls on the left of center spectrum may matter on how they get their info.

I follow a lot of different people & outlets & there's a lot of "traditional liberal" sites that I think are good for "hard news" but not so great on commentary,

Then there's the "alarmist" Folks who are clear eyed about the Fascist threat we face. I don't agree all the time but I think they're right.

Then there's Actual Communists which, lol no, IMO.

@The757Progressive There's a huge difference in communication between how Republicans talk to Republicans.

I don't know how to explain this.

With the amount of shit and hate being projected into the world, you'd think all Republicans hate all Democrats. Of course, MAGA does. MAGA is gone in hard.

But, a lot of Republicans don't. There's a lot of emotionally charged content being projected by the algorithm.

But the people who are not hating are not engaging online. You don't see them.

@The757Progressive There's a danger in here when saying "all Republicans".

My family are included in the Republican hate machine, I wish I could say they weren't, but they are.

But there are Republicans who are disavowing MAGA. They don't make a show of it, they're not going to stand up or be loud about it or become Democrats. But there is a big schism happening.

But again, they will still vote Republican because they are oblivious to the greater discourse and bad laws trying to be passed.

@quinnsentialOne What's concerning to me is the whole "Good Germans" vibe I get from the whole "not all republicans" stuff.

Again, not about your family specifically.

I think about prominent NeverTrump folks, the MSNBC Republicans as I call them.

These folks should be whipping hard to get "all normal GOP" to *be* supportive of Dems even temporarily to defeat maga

That they don't do that troubles me, and makes me fear we are running out of time to stop MAGA.

@The757Progressive Oh, don't get me wrong.

I see the danger of what's happening. Oblivious people are the people who stand by while atrocities happen.

When I say "not at Republicans" I'm not saying "they don't have any fault" in the march of hate.

What I'm saying is maybe if we spent more time reaching the average Republican without the hate for them, and just telling them how we can make their lives better through policy... then there can be less "all Republicans" and more informed voters.

@quinnsentialOne I hear you.

My counter to this would be that, after the Maga fascism and the Era of Trump, I struggle to understand how anyone could remain a Republican.

Like,

You either are All In on Trump's Nazism

Or you're Not.

And if you're Not

Why are you still a Republican?

And so forth.

@The757Progressive It was really hard for me to leave the Republican party, so I can tell you why, I had a hard time.

First, because of the bubble, you only think it's a small fraction of people. Bad apples in a batch kind of thing.

Second, our whole families are probably traditionally Republican. Everyone we know. Family is a powerful motivator to stay.

Third, a lot of Republicans don't see the bad shit. The algorithm at work. I didn't see it, at all...... until I did.

@quinnsentialOne How did you begin to see it?

@The757Progressive Between my friends brave enough to keep trying to reach me and Trump himself.

I saw and heard things about Trump, through my friends, I would have not seen myself. It made a dent in my bubble. My first reaction was "nobody is perfect" and other rationalizations.

But I did start paying attention more because of the things he said.

It was enough to put a small crack in my bubble.

The abortion thing shattered my bubble entirely.

@quinnsentialOne you have good friends, the ones who tried.

We all try to rationalize things in tough times, so that's nothing to be ashamed of there.

Asking for understanding not as a gotcha - Why did the abortion thing shatter the bubble?

A lot of RWers for years talked about overturning Roe. How did that register to you, pre-Dobbs?

@The757Progressive I think this might be one of the big differences between Republicans and Democrats.

I don't know how accurate it is yet, because I only personally know a few Democrats.

But Democrats seem heavily involved and invested in their politics, and very informed about the good and the bad.

On the Republican side. It's not like that. They vote, they see the mailers, etc, but they're not really involved politically. It's more habit, more traditional.