There are certainly people who are taking advantage of the hatred, the division, and the strife. Like Fox News, Ben Shapiro, etc.
But the real villain, the real enemy, are the algorithms designed to take advantage of you, to use you, to discard you, to do what it is told to do without consequence of what the actions are.
To engage you. To manipulation your emotions. To bring you content that keeps you hating...... because hate drives clicks, hate makes you watch.
6/x
If you want to save the world, stop the division, stopping the grifters won't stop it.
You have to go after the corporations. Meta. Google. Apple. All of them, make these algorithms illegal. Ban them. Stop them.
The evil isn't coming from the other side, it's coming from where you are not looking.
The question is, what do we do about it? How do we explain it to people like my parents who are barely capable of using Facebook and email?
What do we do about it?
7/7
@quinnsentialOne the tough part of all of this is that even if you got rid of the algorithms, magically they all stopped tomorrow...
So many people are so far down their preferred rabbit hole that they personally would continue to push their preferred narratives.
Sure, algorithms are a big part of why so much RW content propagates
But a lot of that is also organically shared bc people are so deep into their ecosystem that they wish to share that information to the exclusion of all else.
@quinnsentialOne a lot of people incorrectly believe that (inset bogeyman here) is going to ruin they and their family's lives or outright destroy them, because enough other people told them it would.
We focus a lot on "grifters" and I'm not going to say people selling shit takes for cash aren't part of the problem
I am going to offer that I think too many well-meaning people have dismissed too many True Believers as simply grifters, and that's a big problem.
@The757Progressive My view is from my own perspective.
I didn't fall into the hole because I was a true believer.
I don't believe my family are true believers either.
I was a believer who didn't have anything else to believe. My beliefs were made up for me, and I embraced them because I saw nothing else.
That is the danger I see.
@quinnsentialOne hm I'll have to think about that one.
You've stumped me a bit lol.
@The757Progressive Of course, I agree there will be true believers.
But I don't think most are victims.
I look at my family like victims, and I want to find a way to heal them.
Maybe it's stupid or naive, but what other choice do I have? Just let them go?
@quinnsentialOne it's neither stupid nor naive to wait to heal the ones you love.
Nobody ever wants to let their family go.
Sometimes some people find there is no choice. Hopefully it won't come to that for you.
I don't want to sound like I am "disagreeing" with anything you're saying, because I think it's all valid and important to discuss.
I guess one thing that does puzzle me is perhaps the weight being assigned to the algorithms?
@quinnsentialOne what I mean by "weight" is
If I am understanding correctly, I get the sense you feel the algorithms are almost totally to blame?
I understand the position but I would inquire as to where human agency comes in here?
Are people so bombarded by algorithms that they do not have agency to not be drawn into them, and thus have their beliefs formed for them?
@The757Progressive No, people do have their own agency.
But it's getting harder and harder for people to be agents of their own identity when you're being directed by the machines telling you more and more what your agency is.
Machines may be telling people what The Purveyors of Information *think* their identity should be, because of reasons.
But people still have the ability to reject those algorithms by seeking out their own info / not clicking on suggested content.
Algorithms certainly point people in the wrong direction, 100%. However I do wonder if there's something latent that is also drawing people to those links beyond "a machine said I should click this".
@The757Progressive It is really hard to reject the machine when it is everything you see.
Have you ever seen what a Google search or Facebook feed looks like from a MAGA perspective?
It would really throw you for a loop.
@quinnsentialOne I haven't, but.
I'm not sure how to frame it.
If someone searches (insert question or subject here)
Like
Let's say "is Biden really president"
Sure they are going to get a bunch of Qult material saying "no" but, it's likely you'll get "normie" stuff like NYT or someone "fact checking" it.
If they choose to go down the "no" path...
Are the algorithms possibly just exploiting latent biases or presumptions?
@The757Progressive But this is looking at it from a way too logical frame of reference.
By the time people have reached the point "Is Biden really president?" they are already in deep.
And a Google search will give them a thousand articles telling them Biden isn't president.
@quinnsentialOne Do you know how someone might have even "started" down this path?
What's the gateway? Where does the fall begin?
If you know, or have a theory, lol.
@The757Progressive However, you've got to remember as well.
Republicans are already in a bubble of Republican news.
But, it can suck in non-Republicans too.
I do know former Democrats who fell into the hole and are now in super deep.
@quinnsentialOne So if someone doesn't reject it out of hand immediately, they are pulled in?
I mean I've read some outlandish shit over the years and always dismissed it.
Is it because I'm not predisposed to believing any of it?
Are they sucked in bc they are predisposed?
This should be a thesis, it's quite a subject!
@The757Progressive From an outsider, someone who isn't really leftist. I think everyone lives in a media bubble now. But, I think the Democrat bubble is less harmful than the Republican bubble. Because a lot of the content is about helping people and injustice. So, the algorithm on the left pushes leftists to similar content.
That's not me saying the algorithm is harmless on the left. It's doing what it does there too.
There's still future danger in that if it snowballs to violence.
@quinnsentialOne no disagreement.
I will note that where one falls on the left of center spectrum may matter on how they get their info.
I follow a lot of different people & outlets & there's a lot of "traditional liberal" sites that I think are good for "hard news" but not so great on commentary,
Then there's the "alarmist" Folks who are clear eyed about the Fascist threat we face. I don't agree all the time but I think they're right.
Then there's Actual Communists which, lol no, IMO.
@The757Progressive There's a huge difference in communication between how Republicans talk to Republicans.
I don't know how to explain this.
With the amount of shit and hate being projected into the world, you'd think all Republicans hate all Democrats. Of course, MAGA does. MAGA is gone in hard.
But, a lot of Republicans don't. There's a lot of emotionally charged content being projected by the algorithm.
But the people who are not hating are not engaging online. You don't see them.
@The757Progressive There's a danger in here when saying "all Republicans".
My family are included in the Republican hate machine, I wish I could say they weren't, but they are.
But there are Republicans who are disavowing MAGA. They don't make a show of it, they're not going to stand up or be loud about it or become Democrats. But there is a big schism happening.
But again, they will still vote Republican because they are oblivious to the greater discourse and bad laws trying to be passed.
@The757Progressive Oh, don't get me wrong.
I see the danger of what's happening. Oblivious people are the people who stand by while atrocities happen.
When I say "not at Republicans" I'm not saying "they don't have any fault" in the march of hate.
What I'm saying is maybe if we spent more time reaching the average Republican without the hate for them, and just telling them how we can make their lives better through policy... then there can be less "all Republicans" and more informed voters.
@quinnsentialOne I hear you.
My counter to this would be that, after the Maga fascism and the Era of Trump, I struggle to understand how anyone could remain a Republican.
Like,
You either are All In on Trump's Nazism
Or you're Not.
And if you're Not
Why are you still a Republican?
And so forth.
@The757Progressive It was really hard for me to leave the Republican party, so I can tell you why, I had a hard time.
First, because of the bubble, you only think it's a small fraction of people. Bad apples in a batch kind of thing.
Second, our whole families are probably traditionally Republican. Everyone we know. Family is a powerful motivator to stay.
Third, a lot of Republicans don't see the bad shit. The algorithm at work. I didn't see it, at all...... until I did.
@The757Progressive This is the question I would propose, "How can you believe there are Nazi's in your party if you're never seeing the Nazi's in your party?"
You see it, because you're not in the bubble of core Republicanism. I see it, now, because I got out of the bubble. Many of my non-MAGA Republican family don't see it because they are still in the bubble.
@quinnsentialOne How did you begin to see it?
@The757Progressive Between my friends brave enough to keep trying to reach me and Trump himself.
I saw and heard things about Trump, through my friends, I would have not seen myself. It made a dent in my bubble. My first reaction was "nobody is perfect" and other rationalizations.
But I did start paying attention more because of the things he said.
It was enough to put a small crack in my bubble.
The abortion thing shattered my bubble entirely.
@quinnsentialOne you have good friends, the ones who tried.
We all try to rationalize things in tough times, so that's nothing to be ashamed of there.
Asking for understanding not as a gotcha - Why did the abortion thing shatter the bubble?
A lot of RWers for years talked about overturning Roe. How did that register to you, pre-Dobbs?
@The757Progressive This may seem weird, but most Republicans I know do support sensible abortion.
But right now the MAGA crowd are crowing the loudest about it.
And it is really hard to separate MAGA and the average Republican and the hard right Republican when all you see are the shouters and haters.
Most Republicans are moderate and sensible. They're just...... oblivious and not politically involved. They wake up, do their job, vote Republican, go back to sleep.
@The757Progressive I think this might be one of the big differences between Republicans and Democrats.
I don't know how accurate it is yet, because I only personally know a few Democrats.
But Democrats seem heavily involved and invested in their politics, and very informed about the good and the bad.
On the Republican side. It's not like that. They vote, they see the mailers, etc, but they're not really involved politically. It's more habit, more traditional.
@quinnsentialOne It's wild what you're saying because
I don't want to disbelieve you.
But I have not felt - for years, for a long time really - that there are no more "moderate Republicans" left.
Everyone who still bothers to call themselves a Republican is a theocratic Fascist that may or may not also be a white supremacist and has some varying degree of hatred for gay people, and liberals.
Like.
That there hasn't been a big "Moderate Republican" movement has always spoken volumes to me.
@The757Progressive And there will never be a big moderate Republican movement.
And that saddens me.
There are so many loving, friendly, and caring people inside the Republican party who are not a part of MAGA and who are just not aware of what's happening in the greater political sphere.
And here's the reason it's invisible. Cities are, mostly, Democrat. Rural is mostly Republican.
It's hard to be a critical mass when you're spread so far apart from each other.
@quinnsentialOne and it's this paragraph here why I think this country is in so much peril. Ugh.
@The757Progressive This what scares me too.
And I see it, pretty directly.
@quinnsentialOne Yeahhhhhh that's why I feel we need to really make "normal people" aware of the danger, quickly.
Very quickly.
@The757Progressive This is why I don't believe we should be attacking and hating everyone who is a Republican, or forcefully trying to tell them how wrong or ignorant they are just by a party label.
We can't make them aware if we are pushing them away at the same time.
Politicians, especially, need to reach out to the daily Republican and give them something.
And if they don't relate, then try again. And again. And keep trying.
When we stop reaching, we've already lost.
@quinnsentialOne does "the daily Republican" want things the Fascist Republican doesn't?
Does the daily Republican want things that can be agreeable with those on the left?
Obviously i don't expect any Republican to become in favor of M4A or anything
But if there aren't any common grounds to be had, that's problematic
@The757Progressive I feel like you're thinking too existentially about what common ground it.
Like I said before, the things we all have in common are home, family, financial issues, health problems, people we care about, our pets, just daily living things, etc.
When I talk to MAGA members of my family, at the least ones who will talk to me. I stay away from the greater existential discussions. It's a bridge too far, but the dialog has to start somewhere before you cross any bridge.
@quinnsentialOne I'm an existential person in these Plague Times, what can I say, lol. 🙃
@The757Progressive I don't know if you believe in God or not, and it's okay if you don't.
But we are in a war for the souls of people, whether real or metaphorical.
It's the same end, we want to save people from something evil that is gripping our country and taking our family and friends from us.
Are we people who are just going to throw up our hands and give up because it's hard or feels impossible?
Or are we going fight and keep trying to save them, and us?
Who are we if we give up?
@quinnsentialOne I guess I just struggle to understand how to engage with people who believe God wants them to hate gay people and ban abortion when I believe God said feed the hungry, welcome the immigrant, and do not judge your neighbor.
I'm not a theologian but I just don't know how to reach someone like that.
@The757Progressive I struggle too.
Even knowing how my friends reached me, and my own journey, it's hard.
I am making very slow successes with my sister, at least. Even one success would be better than never trying at all.
@quinnsentialOne if I may borrow a phrase, you're doing the Lord's Work there.
I know it's gonna be hard.
But you're doing the right thing, and a great thing.
@The757Progressive And more on this, I think it's easier for unscrupulous people to take advantage of the moderate Republican and that lack of political awareness.
It's easier to manipulate a group of people who are spread out in rural areas, who are less likely to have other sources of information than it is larger groups of people with more diverse sources of information.
The most dangerous voter is the uninformed one, and it's easy to keep rural areas uninformed.
@quinnsentialOne What's concerning to me is the whole "Good Germans" vibe I get from the whole "not all republicans" stuff.
Again, not about your family specifically.
I think about prominent NeverTrump folks, the MSNBC Republicans as I call them.
These folks should be whipping hard to get "all normal GOP" to *be* supportive of Dems even temporarily to defeat maga
That they don't do that troubles me, and makes me fear we are running out of time to stop MAGA.