#religion
With the constant encroachment of religion on state affairs, one can wonder if humanity would have been better off without it!

One cannot deny that religion has brought a lot of pain to humans in the past 10,000 years!

Yes, it has also contributed to allay the misery and suffering of the poorest citizens! But, was it enough to compensate for the horrors caused by the Inquisition, the Crusades, Pedophilia, the unwanted missionaries, the torture of natives?

Food for thought!

@Helveticus My answer is a resounding YES! Humans seem at their core to want to worship something. IMO, it's far better that we worship an external Creator God than an internal selfish desire. That way ultimately leads only to misery and destruction.

If anyone believes humans are evolving and following the better angels of our nature, look no further than the horrors of the current Ukraine war. We have not changed. We are wretched and bent on self-destruction. Only God can tame our wild souls.

@danielbsmith I appreciate your position even though I don't believe in a god!

You seem to imply that there is no morality without religions, and I wish to state that the morality rules were not written by a deity but by wise men!

As a tribe, we must respect others as simple self-defense! Nobody wants to live amid chaos!

Ukraine is the product of one criminal, not a common occurrence among civilized people!

I fully respect those who claim to live in fear of a god, that is their choice!

@Helveticus Thank you. I appreciate the care you took in crafting that response. I also intend to be only respectful.

I don't think morality only comes from religion. However, I think that every human being has a moral code at their core however pure or amoral that code is. The point I was trying to make in the previous post is that I think humans could (and would!) do a lot worse without religion which is my response to your post.

@danielbsmith I get it, I am glad you agree regarding rules written by humans and not deities!

But I still disagree about your premise that it would be worse without religion!

Are native Indians in South America better off when they were forcibly converted to catholicism?

Yes, they had a pagan religion but nowadays informed people prefer atheism to paganism!

As an atheist I know I am much better as a family man and a citizen than the many believers around me!

@Helveticus The Maya, Inca, Olmec, and Aztec societies all show evidence of religious practices before being visited by Europeans. They just weren't Catholic.

Pardon me, but it sounds like your argument isn't against religion in general but specifically christianity since you discount their beliefs. Pagan or not they weren't without belief in a god or gods and an afterlife. I think this would compare favorably to any modern religion.

@danielbsmith I am trying, even if I have doubts, to say that paganism is due to ignorance of science, hence no longer applicable in modern times.

So educated Christians have become atheists by the thousands once exposed to the lack of proof and the advances of science, especially evolution which, in my humble opinion, shows that if we were created by a god, why go through all the painstaking stages with animals until the appearance of humans (O so similar to the great apes)!

Thank you Daniel!

@Helveticus Ok. That helps. Thank you for explaining.

I actually agree with your first paragraph. Where I differ is the idea that science and religion are incompatible. Granted, most christians are science illiterate but not all and not me. I have found harmony between science and christianity. I follow the work of Reasons to Believe. It's real science and real theology using the two books doctrine: the idea that God as Creator has revealed Himself in both scripture and nature.

@danielbsmith Thank you Daniel, I conclude that as you accept science and its discoveries you probably woud love to reconcile evolution with religious scriptures!

Unfortunately, there are no modern scriptures that would deal with scientific progress. It seems that the Bible has not evolved and its science is quite primitive!

Genesis does not explain how 2 human beings can be the cause for 7 billion human beings. Science says that is not possible so where are the other men and women?

Thanks!