#religion
With the constant encroachment of religion on state affairs, one can wonder if humanity would have been better off without it!
One cannot deny that religion has brought a lot of pain to humans in the past 10,000 years!
Yes, it has also contributed to allay the misery and suffering of the poorest citizens! But, was it enough to compensate for the horrors caused by the Inquisition, the Crusades, Pedophilia, the unwanted missionaries, the torture of natives?
Food for thought!
@Helveticus My answer is a resounding YES! Humans seem at their core to want to worship something. IMO, it's far better that we worship an external Creator God than an internal selfish desire. That way ultimately leads only to misery and destruction.
If anyone believes humans are evolving and following the better angels of our nature, look no further than the horrors of the current Ukraine war. We have not changed. We are wretched and bent on self-destruction. Only God can tame our wild souls.
@danielbsmith I appreciate your position even though I don't believe in a god!
You seem to imply that there is no morality without religions, and I wish to state that the morality rules were not written by a deity but by wise men!
As a tribe, we must respect others as simple self-defense! Nobody wants to live amid chaos!
Ukraine is the product of one criminal, not a common occurrence among civilized people!
I fully respect those who claim to live in fear of a god, that is their choice!
@Helveticus Thank you. I appreciate the care you took in crafting that response. I also intend to be only respectful.
I don't think morality only comes from religion. However, I think that every human being has a moral code at their core however pure or amoral that code is. The point I was trying to make in the previous post is that I think humans could (and would!) do a lot worse without religion which is my response to your post.
@danielbsmith I get it, I am glad you agree regarding rules written by humans and not deities!
But I still disagree about your premise that it would be worse without religion!
Are native Indians in South America better off when they were forcibly converted to catholicism?
Yes, they had a pagan religion but nowadays informed people prefer atheism to paganism!
As an atheist I know I am much better as a family man and a citizen than the many believers around me!
@Helveticus This is controversial but if religion is defined very loosely as a belief about a god, gods, or the afterlife then atheism qualifies. I know this line of reasoning may be uncomfortable but to compare atheism to other religions we need properties they share in common.
There is something at the core of humanity regarding morality and religious belief such that it seems impossible for humans to not worship something or express these beliefs somehow.
@danielbsmith I am trying, even if I have doubts, to say that paganism is due to ignorance of science, hence no longer applicable in modern times.
So educated Christians have become atheists by the thousands once exposed to the lack of proof and the advances of science, especially evolution which, in my humble opinion, shows that if we were created by a god, why go through all the painstaking stages with animals until the appearance of humans (O so similar to the great apes)!
Thank you Daniel!
@Helveticus Ok. That helps. Thank you for explaining.
I actually agree with your first paragraph. Where I differ is the idea that science and religion are incompatible. Granted, most christians are science illiterate but not all and not me. I have found harmony between science and christianity. I follow the work of Reasons to Believe. It's real science and real theology using the two books doctrine: the idea that God as Creator has revealed Himself in both scripture and nature.
@Helveticus Also, thank you for the follow. 🥰
@danielbsmith Thank you Daniel, I conclude that as you accept science and its discoveries you probably woud love to reconcile evolution with religious scriptures!
Unfortunately, there are no modern scriptures that would deal with scientific progress. It seems that the Bible has not evolved and its science is quite primitive!
Genesis does not explain how 2 human beings can be the cause for 7 billion human beings. Science says that is not possible so where are the other men and women?
Thanks!
@Helveticus There's a lot we could talk about but I'll start with the first: reconciling #evolution. Here is my understanding:
Biological evolution is a set of maintenance mechanisms that apply to living organisms and biological systems. No more and no less. Evolution has no creative power. It only works on life that already exists. All of the evidence for biological evolution that we have is for these kinds of mechanisms. There is no evidence that it can create new life from raw materials.
@Helveticus I know this is an unorthodox approach, especially here in the states, but I think it works. There is a short video from reasons to believe that explains this in more detail. Let me find that link if you would like to watch it.
@danielbsmith Thank you, Daniel, I am referring to the link to youtube videos trying to explain evolution with regard to faith!
I am merely an amateur interested in all science who became an atheist from a catholic education!
But One cannot fit a size 14 foot into a size 10 shoe! The analogy is relevant to that video! Christians pick whatever they want from science to try and reconcile science and religion!
Since religious texts are very old, they cannot reflect modern science!
@Helveticus I believe the scriptures reflect science as the ancients understood it. I think that probably applies to all ancient cultures but I am most familiar with the Bible. We won't get modern statements but there will be hints.
Here are a few verses that you might recognize:
* Colossians hints that the universe has a beginning.
* Psalms and Romans tells us that observing the universe can reveal information.
* Jeremiah says babies are knit together and that analogy works.
@Helveticus If a science-minded person studies the scriptures as they are the science content becomes visible. They're small and there's not a lot of detail, but the Bible uses an economy of words which can express a lot in a small space. Taken together, they say a lot.
Here's an exhaustive list of scriptures related to creation:
https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/todays-new-reason-to-believe/read/tnrtb/2001/01/23/scriptures-related-to-creation
@danielbsmith I understand what you mean by science in the Bible, but, please note that these descriptions are typical of what an educated man of the times would say, as there is not a single fact that could be called scientific and that is normal, as they did not have telescopes or microscopes!
Everything in the Bible was written by humans, so they reflect what knowledge existed at the time. There is no proof of the existence of a god!
@danielbsmith Well, there are valuable hints that place the amino acids as the building blocks of life together with other biochemical sustances.
Some scientists even state that they can create life:
So yes, it can be done, life is simply the result of the primordial soup! A lucky accident!
@Helveticus The Maya, Inca, Olmec, and Aztec societies all show evidence of religious practices before being visited by Europeans. They just weren't Catholic.
Pardon me, but it sounds like your argument isn't against religion in general but specifically christianity since you discount their beliefs. Pagan or not they weren't without belief in a god or gods and an afterlife. I think this would compare favorably to any modern religion.