@quinnsentialOne what I mean by "weight" is

If I am understanding correctly, I get the sense you feel the algorithms are almost totally to blame?

I understand the position but I would inquire as to where human agency comes in here?

Are people so bombarded by algorithms that they do not have agency to not be drawn into them, and thus have their beliefs formed for them?

@The757Progressive No, people do have their own agency.

But it's getting harder and harder for people to be agents of their own identity when you're being directed by the machines telling you more and more what your agency is.

@quinnsentialOne

Machines may be telling people what The Purveyors of Information *think* their identity should be, because of reasons.

But people still have the ability to reject those algorithms by seeking out their own info / not clicking on suggested content.

Algorithms certainly point people in the wrong direction, 100%. However I do wonder if there's something latent that is also drawing people to those links beyond "a machine said I should click this".

@The757Progressive It is really hard to reject the machine when it is everything you see.

Have you ever seen what a Google search or Facebook feed looks like from a MAGA perspective?

It would really throw you for a loop.

@quinnsentialOne I haven't, but.

I'm not sure how to frame it.

If someone searches (insert question or subject here)

Like

Let's say "is Biden really president"

Sure they are going to get a bunch of Qult material saying "no" but, it's likely you'll get "normie" stuff like NYT or someone "fact checking" it.

If they choose to go down the "no" path...

Are the algorithms possibly just exploiting latent biases or presumptions?

@The757Progressive But this is looking at it from a way too logical frame of reference.

By the time people have reached the point "Is Biden really president?" they are already in deep.

And a Google search will give them a thousand articles telling them Biden isn't president.

@quinnsentialOne Do you know how someone might have even "started" down this path?

What's the gateway? Where does the fall begin?

If you know, or have a theory, lol.

@The757Progressive It starts by friends and family who are already in, sharing it and talking about it.

It's really not outlandish stuff at first. It's like Uncle Joe just over having a few bears talking about something that seems crazy.

But not long after someone else shares an article. That's not true. Ridiculous.

Then another article, reinforces the last. And you're like, "Maybe there's something to it?"

By that point, you're already going to have a hard time getting out. It got you.

@The757Progressive However, you've got to remember as well.

Republicans are already in a bubble of Republican news.

But, it can suck in non-Republicans too.

I do know former Democrats who fell into the hole and are now in super deep.

@quinnsentialOne So if someone doesn't reject it out of hand immediately, they are pulled in?

I mean I've read some outlandish shit over the years and always dismissed it.

Is it because I'm not predisposed to believing any of it?

Are they sucked in bc they are predisposed?

This should be a thesis, it's quite a subject!

@The757Progressive From an outsider, someone who isn't really leftist. I think everyone lives in a media bubble now. But, I think the Democrat bubble is less harmful than the Republican bubble. Because a lot of the content is about helping people and injustice. So, the algorithm on the left pushes leftists to similar content.

That's not me saying the algorithm is harmless on the left. It's doing what it does there too.

There's still future danger in that if it snowballs to violence.

@quinnsentialOne no disagreement.

I will note that where one falls on the left of center spectrum may matter on how they get their info.

I follow a lot of different people & outlets & there's a lot of "traditional liberal" sites that I think are good for "hard news" but not so great on commentary,

Then there's the "alarmist" Folks who are clear eyed about the Fascist threat we face. I don't agree all the time but I think they're right.

Then there's Actual Communists which, lol no, IMO.

@The757Progressive There's a huge difference in communication between how Republicans talk to Republicans.

I don't know how to explain this.

With the amount of shit and hate being projected into the world, you'd think all Republicans hate all Democrats. Of course, MAGA does. MAGA is gone in hard.

But, a lot of Republicans don't. There's a lot of emotionally charged content being projected by the algorithm.

But the people who are not hating are not engaging online. You don't see them.

@quinnsentialOne building on your last comment with this one, you mentioned not paying attention with regards to the hate.

What is enticing these people to vote for policies/politicians if they aren't paying attention?

Not the Qult type, the others?

@The757Progressive Tradition.

Tradition and the lack of discourse/nuance.

Republicans get mailers and calls about what Republican politicians are doing for them, but Democratic politicians rarely ever focus on reaching Republican voters.

Your average middle class Republican is as blind as an absolute bat in regards of policy and politics. They don't know anything because the world isn't affecting them.

@quinnsentialOne It infuriates me that 95% of dems write off these voters without trying.

Fetterman didn't and it helped him win.

They should all be doing this.

Seek every vote knowing you won't get them all.

@The757Progressive This is a part of why I think the average Republican feels like Democrats can't be a part of their solution.

They feel abandoned and discarded by the left in the march of progress.

@quinnsentialOne and frankly the Democratic Party leaves a lot of their own voters our in the lurch too.

Both parties are too beholden to corporate cash.

It makes me furious.

@The757Progressive There's a danger in here when saying "all Republicans".

My family are included in the Republican hate machine, I wish I could say they weren't, but they are.

But there are Republicans who are disavowing MAGA. They don't make a show of it, they're not going to stand up or be loud about it or become Democrats. But there is a big schism happening.

But again, they will still vote Republican because they are oblivious to the greater discourse and bad laws trying to be passed.

@quinnsentialOne What's concerning to me is the whole "Good Germans" vibe I get from the whole "not all republicans" stuff.

Again, not about your family specifically.

I think about prominent NeverTrump folks, the MSNBC Republicans as I call them.

These folks should be whipping hard to get "all normal GOP" to *be* supportive of Dems even temporarily to defeat maga

That they don't do that troubles me, and makes me fear we are running out of time to stop MAGA.

@The757Progressive Oh, don't get me wrong.

I see the danger of what's happening. Oblivious people are the people who stand by while atrocities happen.

When I say "not at Republicans" I'm not saying "they don't have any fault" in the march of hate.

What I'm saying is maybe if we spent more time reaching the average Republican without the hate for them, and just telling them how we can make their lives better through policy... then there can be less "all Republicans" and more informed voters.

@quinnsentialOne I hear you.

My counter to this would be that, after the Maga fascism and the Era of Trump, I struggle to understand how anyone could remain a Republican.

Like,

You either are All In on Trump's Nazism

Or you're Not.

And if you're Not

Why are you still a Republican?

And so forth.

@The757Progressive It was really hard for me to leave the Republican party, so I can tell you why, I had a hard time.

First, because of the bubble, you only think it's a small fraction of people. Bad apples in a batch kind of thing.

Second, our whole families are probably traditionally Republican. Everyone we know. Family is a powerful motivator to stay.

Third, a lot of Republicans don't see the bad shit. The algorithm at work. I didn't see it, at all...... until I did.

@The757Progressive This is the question I would propose, "How can you believe there are Nazi's in your party if you're never seeing the Nazi's in your party?"

You see it, because you're not in the bubble of core Republicanism. I see it, now, because I got out of the bubble. Many of my non-MAGA Republican family don't see it because they are still in the bubble.

@quinnsentialOne How did you begin to see it?

@The757Progressive Also, a lot of Republicans aren't really crazy people who hate other people, or against gay people, etc.

While my family is ugly hard right, many Republicans I know are not hateful people.

BUT the kicker to this is that they are oblivious to the world because of the algorithm curated bubble. They work long hours, they don't see much social media, so they don't see the hateful stuff as much as you think they would be surrounded by it.

@quinnsentialOne Do these same people (not necessarily your family, but apply as it makes sense) support hateful policies?

If so, doesn't that make them hateful people?

Maybe they don't run around in Proud Boys colors looking for streetfights with LGBTQ activists all day, but.

Curious the nuance here

@The757Progressive Oh there are hateful groups in the Republican party, for sure.

But most Republicans are not seeing the hate, they are not presented with it in their day to day lives. What they hear are offhand stories which to them come off as "isolated" stories.

They don't read about the policies their politicians support or vote for. They're not reading it or seeing it.

I don't think they understand how important paying attention is.

I know I didn't, and I'm ashamed of that.

@quinnsentialOne the dialogue you're having now is important, and I think you're showing a lot of growth and self-reflection.

I appreciate the dialogue you're having with me and others at CoSo bc I think these are the conversations "collective we" should be having

@The757Progressive I'm glad I can be having this dialogue now. a few years ago, I would have never wanted to be anywhere near a Democrat, let alone talk to one. 😞

@quinnsentialOne I'm sorry. I can tell how deeply this has impacted you.

No judgment here. Just conversation and hopefully on a macro level, solutions

@The757Progressive I think what I've learned through my own experience as a Republican who got pulled into MAGA and managed to get out.

People really are people. The hateful side of things is really amplified.

But when you can step outside of the politics everyone wants the same thing. Home. Comfort. Family. And cats.

How I've been connecting with my MAGA family or friends every time they go on a rant with me is to talk about something mundane.

Anything to relate and humanize the hate.

@quinnsentialOne You're doing amazing things, and I applaud your strength and commitment to it.

It must be incredibly challenging when the bile is spewing directly at you.

@The757Progressive Oh I get it from both sides really hard sometimes.

I am a traitor to my MAGA family because I left the party.

I am stupid to some former friends who are Democrats because I was "too dumb and stupid" to see what was happening.

There are days I just want to scream.

There are days I just spend crying because of my family.

@quinnsentialOne 😩

I'm sorry. That's rough.

It's one thing if you're still trying to "reach" your family and they aren't totally receptive yet.

Your friends don't sound like they were very good friends for saying shit like that to you.

Guess that's why you said "former" 😕

@The757Progressive Yes, I tried reaching out and apologizing for it.

But they said it was too late I already caused so much harm with my hate to their friends they can never forgive me.

I didn't ask for forgiveness though. I live with the hate I had in me every day. I feel it all the time.

@The757Progressive @quinnsentialOne
I don't know, I thought I had raised my daughter right but it didn't take much to convince her that my beliefs don't work for her. It's heartbreaking

@Idissent @quinnsentialOne how much was "not much", if you're able to quantify?

@The757Progressive @quinnsentialOne
My son in law...

@Idissent @quinnsentialOne 😩

Agree with Quinn you should not be blaming yourself here

@Idissent @The757Progressive Can you explain this a little more?

I feel like you're blaming yourself for something that was really out of your hands. You shouldn't.

@quinnsentialOne @The757Progressive
No, not at all. I did the best I could and can't tell a grown woman how to think. I just don't talk to her about politics ever