Sorry about all the typos in my last rant.

I had a long day, and I'm tired. 😂

@quinnsentialOne the tough part of all of this is that even if you got rid of the algorithms, magically they all stopped tomorrow...

So many people are so far down their preferred rabbit hole that they personally would continue to push their preferred narratives.

Sure, algorithms are a big part of why so much RW content propagates

But a lot of that is also organically shared bc people are so deep into their ecosystem that they wish to share that information to the exclusion of all else.

@The757Progressive
Yes, but a lot of that sharing is curated by the algorithms. It directs those shares to people are more likely to engage with those shares.

It compounds the narrative problem a thousand fold. It enforces the bubble of "you will see nothing else".

@quinnsentialOne yes, absolutely.

I think a big opportunity has been missed to not understand why people have gone down these holes and become radicalized the way they are.

It is not hyperbolic to say these people are part of a cult.

And, like any other cult, it is not just that they need to be "cut off" from an algorithm, but rather fully deprogrammed as any other person who has fallen into a cult would need to be

Apologies of my replies seem out of order lol trying to keep up

@quinnsentialOne as for a solution, it's hard to think of one off the cuff.

Pressuring advertising to stop associating with these platforms and people

Pressuring media and elected types to take it seriously and not dismiss it all as a cash grab

Working actively as a community to counter cult programming and brainwashing.

This has taken a deep root unfortunately and we all need very sharp shovels to dig it all out

@quinnsentialOne a lot of people incorrectly believe that (inset bogeyman here) is going to ruin they and their family's lives or outright destroy them, because enough other people told them it would.

We focus a lot on "grifters" and I'm not going to say people selling shit takes for cash aren't part of the problem

I am going to offer that I think too many well-meaning people have dismissed too many True Believers as simply grifters, and that's a big problem.

@The757Progressive My view is from my own perspective.

I didn't fall into the hole because I was a true believer.

I don't believe my family are true believers either.

I was a believer who didn't have anything else to believe. My beliefs were made up for me, and I embraced them because I saw nothing else.

That is the danger I see.

@quinnsentialOne hm I'll have to think about that one.

You've stumped me a bit lol.

@The757Progressive Of course, I agree there will be true believers.

But I don't think most are victims.

I look at my family like victims, and I want to find a way to heal them.

Maybe it's stupid or naive, but what other choice do I have? Just let them go?

@The757Progressive Oops, I meant to say that most people are victims, and those are the ones we need to save.

@quinnsentialOne it's neither stupid nor naive to wait to heal the ones you love.

Nobody ever wants to let their family go.

Sometimes some people find there is no choice. Hopefully it won't come to that for you.

I don't want to sound like I am "disagreeing" with anything you're saying, because I think it's all valid and important to discuss.

I guess one thing that does puzzle me is perhaps the weight being assigned to the algorithms?

@quinnsentialOne what I mean by "weight" is

If I am understanding correctly, I get the sense you feel the algorithms are almost totally to blame?

I understand the position but I would inquire as to where human agency comes in here?

Are people so bombarded by algorithms that they do not have agency to not be drawn into them, and thus have their beliefs formed for them?

@The757Progressive No, people do have their own agency.

But it's getting harder and harder for people to be agents of their own identity when you're being directed by the machines telling you more and more what your agency is.

@quinnsentialOne

Machines may be telling people what The Purveyors of Information *think* their identity should be, because of reasons.

But people still have the ability to reject those algorithms by seeking out their own info / not clicking on suggested content.

Algorithms certainly point people in the wrong direction, 100%. However I do wonder if there's something latent that is also drawing people to those links beyond "a machine said I should click this".

@The757Progressive It is really hard to reject the machine when it is everything you see.

Have you ever seen what a Google search or Facebook feed looks like from a MAGA perspective?

It would really throw you for a loop.

@quinnsentialOne I haven't, but.

I'm not sure how to frame it.

If someone searches (insert question or subject here)

Like

Let's say "is Biden really president"

Sure they are going to get a bunch of Qult material saying "no" but, it's likely you'll get "normie" stuff like NYT or someone "fact checking" it.

If they choose to go down the "no" path...

Are the algorithms possibly just exploiting latent biases or presumptions?

@The757Progressive But this is looking at it from a way too logical frame of reference.

By the time people have reached the point "Is Biden really president?" they are already in deep.

And a Google search will give them a thousand articles telling them Biden isn't president.

@quinnsentialOne Do you know how someone might have even "started" down this path?

What's the gateway? Where does the fall begin?

If you know, or have a theory, lol.

@The757Progressive It starts by friends and family who are already in, sharing it and talking about it.

It's really not outlandish stuff at first. It's like Uncle Joe just over having a few bears talking about something that seems crazy.

But not long after someone else shares an article. That's not true. Ridiculous.

Then another article, reinforces the last. And you're like, "Maybe there's something to it?"

By that point, you're already going to have a hard time getting out. It got you.

@The757Progressive However, you've got to remember as well.

Republicans are already in a bubble of Republican news.

But, it can suck in non-Republicans too.

I do know former Democrats who fell into the hole and are now in super deep.

@quinnsentialOne So if someone doesn't reject it out of hand immediately, they are pulled in?

I mean I've read some outlandish shit over the years and always dismissed it.

Is it because I'm not predisposed to believing any of it?

Are they sucked in bc they are predisposed?

This should be a thesis, it's quite a subject!

@The757Progressive From an outsider, someone who isn't really leftist. I think everyone lives in a media bubble now. But, I think the Democrat bubble is less harmful than the Republican bubble. Because a lot of the content is about helping people and injustice. So, the algorithm on the left pushes leftists to similar content.

That's not me saying the algorithm is harmless on the left. It's doing what it does there too.

There's still future danger in that if it snowballs to violence.

@quinnsentialOne no disagreement.

I will note that where one falls on the left of center spectrum may matter on how they get their info.

I follow a lot of different people & outlets & there's a lot of "traditional liberal" sites that I think are good for "hard news" but not so great on commentary,

Then there's the "alarmist" Folks who are clear eyed about the Fascist threat we face. I don't agree all the time but I think they're right.

Then there's Actual Communists which, lol no, IMO.

@The757Progressive There's a huge difference in communication between how Republicans talk to Republicans.

I don't know how to explain this.

With the amount of shit and hate being projected into the world, you'd think all Republicans hate all Democrats. Of course, MAGA does. MAGA is gone in hard.

But, a lot of Republicans don't. There's a lot of emotionally charged content being projected by the algorithm.

But the people who are not hating are not engaging online. You don't see them.

@The757Progressive Also, a lot of Republicans aren't really crazy people who hate other people, or against gay people, etc.

While my family is ugly hard right, many Republicans I know are not hateful people.

BUT the kicker to this is that they are oblivious to the world because of the algorithm curated bubble. They work long hours, they don't see much social media, so they don't see the hateful stuff as much as you think they would be surrounded by it.

@quinnsentialOne Do these same people (not necessarily your family, but apply as it makes sense) support hateful policies?

If so, doesn't that make them hateful people?

Maybe they don't run around in Proud Boys colors looking for streetfights with LGBTQ activists all day, but.

Curious the nuance here

@The757Progressive Oh there are hateful groups in the Republican party, for sure.

But most Republicans are not seeing the hate, they are not presented with it in their day to day lives. What they hear are offhand stories which to them come off as "isolated" stories.

They don't read about the policies their politicians support or vote for. They're not reading it or seeing it.

I don't think they understand how important paying attention is.

I know I didn't, and I'm ashamed of that.

@quinnsentialOne the dialogue you're having now is important, and I think you're showing a lot of growth and self-reflection.

I appreciate the dialogue you're having with me and others at CoSo bc I think these are the conversations "collective we" should be having

@The757Progressive I'm glad I can be having this dialogue now. a few years ago, I would have never wanted to be anywhere near a Democrat, let alone talk to one. 😞

@The757Progressive @quinnsentialOne
I don't know, I thought I had raised my daughter right but it didn't take much to convince her that my beliefs don't work for her. It's heartbreaking

@Idissent @quinnsentialOne how much was "not much", if you're able to quantify?

@The757Progressive @quinnsentialOne
My son in law...

@Idissent @quinnsentialOne 😩

Agree with Quinn you should not be blaming yourself here

@Idissent @The757Progressive Can you explain this a little more?

I feel like you're blaming yourself for something that was really out of your hands. You shouldn't.

@quinnsentialOne @The757Progressive
No, not at all. I did the best I could and can't tell a grown woman how to think. I just don't talk to her about politics ever

@quinnsentialOne Thanks for sharing. It's a mystery to my why people get sucked in by these algorithms, but that does seem to be happening to a lot of people.

As a practical matter, how would you suggest outlawing "these algorithms"? Would any sort of recommendation system be verboten, or is there some way of identifying the malignant ones?

@forrcaho I wish I was smart enough to have an answer for this.